I would not argue against the desire for the Society of St. Pius X to preserve its identity, as long as such does not include a persistent and deliberate opposition to the rest of the Church’s self-understanding.
I would also not argue against the discernment of a silent apostasy to which we must respond. However, we must not be deaf to the loud or blatant rebellion and dissent from various members, on the right and left, that afflicts the institution founded by Christ. The greatest threat to papal authority today is not a strained collegialism but an arrogant disobedience. Given their continued participation in this assault, I am not optimistic that the conditions demanded upon by the Society will pass muster with the Holy See.
Despite the negotiations, reconciliation will not come by spurning the directives of the Holy Father while not budging upon their own obstinacy toward an authentic Ecumenical Council of the Church, Vatican II. Any such forced reconciliation would damage real ecclesial unity. While they speak of “canonical normalization,” they cannot even concur with the living Church over which Code of Canon Law actually applies and is in force. Despite their profession in the “monarchial constitution” of the Church under the Pope, they feel they still need a “deliberative vote” before deciding if they will listen to him or not. Is it not peculiar that they attack collegialism in the universal Church but demand upon it for themselves, even arguing that it trumps papal demands? That is certainly not my idea of ecclesial obedience.
I am also not blind to the possible shades of Father Feeney in reference to the Church “outside of which there is no salvation nor possibility to find means leading to salvation.” They are usually very careful not to associate themselves with these extremists, despite a shared affection for traditionalism. While the Church is certainly the great mystery or sacrament of salvation where we encounter Christ, this would seem to invalidate even the more restrained strands of ecumenism. The Church has affirmed that elements of Catholicism with which the Protestants absconded like baptism and faith in Jesus Christ still have some pervading value. While the issue is more complicated with Jews, we acknowledge that Christ is the fulfillment of the one covenant that God first established with them (Cardinal Dulles and Cardinal Ratzinger, i.e. the Pope). The Church is necessary for salvation because there is no way to the Father apart from Jesus Christ. The Church is his Mystical Body. Thus, both are one and integral to salvation. The irony is that if the Society refuses reunion then they will be condemned by their own definition as outside that visible body “by which the supreme power of government . . . belongs only to the Pope, Vicar of Christ on earth.” The only possible solution they might find for this conundrum would be the sedevacantism that some of them apparently have already embraced. Declaring the Chair of Peter vacant, they can define themselves as the true Church and appoint one of their own bishops as the Pope, or in actuality as an anti-pope. Given online sermons and writings from various of their priests, my suspicions are that a number of them will join the Society of St. Pius V in this regard. I hope I am proven wrong.
Further, it is one thing to say that we oppose the abuses from the nebulous spirit of Vatican II; however, they continue to castigate the council itself. As I recall, the Holy See implied that such would be a deal-breaker. It is certainly okay and proper “to uphold the declarations and the teachings of the constant Magisterium of the Church.” Vatican II must be understood or interpreted in light of the traditions and constant faith of the Church. However, instead of seeing continuity, they stress a break “in regard to all the novelties of the Second Vatican Council which remain tainted with errors, and also in regard to the reforms issued from it.” While it lacks certain specificity, this statement can readily be interpreted as a general repudiation of the Church today in all her elements from the catechism to the sacraments. Is this what they meant to say?
Only one of the four traditionalist bishops of the Society of St. Pius X has shown any real interest in the overtures of Pope Benedict XVI. Bishops Bernard Tissier de Mallerais, Alfonso de Galarreta and Richard Williamson threatened internal schism within the Society, warning that any agreement with the Vatican would result in surrendering the fight against worldwide apostasy. This is strong language, literally saying that contemporary Catholicism is a false religion. Indeed, when we look at a number of their priests and apologists, they slam the whole business as capitulation to “the Modernist 
Pope” and “the Modernist Rome.” Some of their sermons online and various writings go so far as to call counterfeit both the “Novus Ordo” priesthood and the “new” Mass. One writer claimed that since Cardinal Ratzinger was made a bishop under the new ritual that he did not share in the episcopacy and thus could not be a genuine pope. People like that will not want to “pollute” themselves with any association with the rest of us. There is a lot of wishful thinking, but after almost a half-century separation, many of them have gotten used to their independence. Slamming the rest of the Church and slurring the Holy Father, at least in sermons and in routine discourse has become second-nature. They do not seem the least bit afraid that they might be committing blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Even Bishop Bernard Fellay has lamented this problem. It has become a habit hard or next to impossible to break. They will not reconnect with what they see as the enemy.
Pope Benedict XVI was very kind to lift their excommunication. However, I would not be surprised if Lefebvrites should invoke its reimposition. After all, they never actually acknowledged it anyway. All it would take is the consecration of another unapproved bishop. Such would force the Church’s hand. The Society itself seems aware that their current response will not suffice for Rome. Thus, they will not be coming home any time soon. While pledging fidelity, they are not going to budge until (in their estimation) the day comes “when an open and serious debate will be possible which may allow the return to Tradition of the ecclesiastical authorities.” In other words, they are saying that they are RIGHT and Rome is WRONG and that nothing will change until the post-Vatican II leadership gives in.
(Lumen Gentium) “Each and all these items which are set forth in this dogmatic Constitution have met with the approval of the Council Fathers. And We by the apostolic power given Us by Christ together with the Venerable Fathers in the Holy Spirit, approve, decree and establish it and command that what has thus been decided in the Council be promulgated for the glory of God.”–Pope Paul VI
Given in Rome at St. Peter’s on November 21, 1964.
I will now wait for hell to freeze over.
I do not think the devil will be wearing a coat any time soon.
Responding to the Pope, here is the difficult condition laid down by the Lefebvrites for reunion: “The freedom to preserve, share and teach the sound doctrine of the constant Magisterium of the Church and the unchanging truth of the divine tradition and the freedom to accuse and even to correct the promoters of the errors or the innovations of modernism, liberalism, and Vatican II and its aftermath.”
Indeed, it looks like the devil is stoking the fire.
Archbishop Gerhard Ludwig Muller explains (July 20): “The purpose of dialogue is to overcome difficulties in the interpretation of the Second Vatican Council, but we cannot negotiate on revealed faith, that is impossible. An Ecumenical Council, according to the Catholic faith, is always the supreme teaching authority of the Church.”
Can the Society of St. Pius X Really Be Reconciled?
Archbishop DiNoia, Ecclesia Dei and the Society of St. Pius X
SSPX recognizes papal authority, hints discussions will continue
Eternal Rome vs. the Magisterium: A Contemporary Myth
SSPX Calls Vatican Recociliation Offer ‘Clearly Unacceptable’
Society of St. Pius X vs. Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter
Lefebvrians say they can only accept doctrinal preamble on three “conditions”
Vatican’s Doctrine Chief: Pius X Society Must Accept Vatican II Teachings
Filed under: Bishops, Catholic, Eucharist, Faith, Magisterium, Pope, Tradition |
Blogger Priest 
Beware of the great distractions! Forget the world to remember your soul. We are in the end times. Our Lord told us about the end times. It will be worse than the time of Noah. Everyone is fighting each other— wanting preeminence—no one telling the truth.
Our Lord will come right in the middle of all this. Give your heart to him. Approach him in prayer and sacrifice. This is the only way to win. Get caught up in the great distractions and you will lose everything.
There is too much fear. Too many do not see. Too many are blind. Never mind what everyone else is doing. Time is running out. The blessed will allow themselves to be saved by Christ.
I was under the impression from reading the SSPX’s documents on the papacy that all of the popes from John XXXIII on were apostates. I fail to see how that will ever be reconciled between Rome and SSPX.
I TOLD YOU SO. I TOLD YOU SO. I TOLD YOU SO.
Any possibility of reconciliation with the SSPX is dead. They are entering full schism… again.
Bishop Bernard Fellay of the SSPX:
“The situation of the Church is a real disaster, and the present Pope is making it 10,000 times worse.”
“When we see what is happening now we thank God, we thank God, we have been preserved from any kind of Agreement from last year. And we may say that one of the fruits of the [Rosary] Crusade we did is that we have been preserved from such a misfortune. Thank God. It is not that we don’t want to be Catholics, of course we want to be Catholics and we are Catholics, and we have a right to be recognized as Catholics. But we are not going to jeopardize our treasures for that. Of course not.”
“To imagine that some people continue to pretend we are decided to get an Agreement with Rome. Poor people. I really challenge them to prove [what] they mean. They pretend that I think something else from what I do. They are not in my head.”
“Any kind of direction for recognition ended when they gave me the document to sign on June 13, 2012. That very day I told them, ‘this document I cannot accept.’ I told them from the start in September the previous year that we cannot accept this ‘hermeneutic of continuity’ because it is not true, it is not real. It is against the reality. So we do not accept it. The Council is not in continuity with Tradition. It’s not. So when Pope Benedict requested that we accept that the Second Vatican Council is an integral part of Tradition, we say, ‘sorry, that’s not the reality, so we’re not going to sign it. We’re not going to recognize that’.”
“The same for the Mass. The want us to recognize not only that the [New] Mass is valid provided it is celebrated correctly, etc., but that it is licit. I told them: we don’t use that word. It’s a bit messy, our faithful have enough [confusion] regarding the validity, so we tell them, ‘The New Mass is bad, it is evil’ and they understand that. Period!’”
“It has never been our intention to pretend either that the Council would be considered as good, or the New Mass would be ‘legitimate.’”
Religiouosity 101: Remember kids, always feel stubbornly assured and rigidly confident in your assessments and harsh in your legality, digging in your heals and stringently standing up to people always trumps kindness or humility and is always safer that handing things meekly over to God in a spirit of dependence and in the recognition that we are fallible, utterly incomplete souls struggling and failing to perceive the full mysteries of the Divine. It’s always going to easier to correct others than to fix ourselves, so it makes sense not bother with the latter until you’ve mastered the former. Anyone among you that perceives any sin may cast the first stone.
Dear Fr Joe,
Thanks for your comprehensive and authoritative reply. Today I can more or less agree with you; today is a better day. Depression and unresolved anger is a killer.
With love,
Paul.
Dear Fr Joe,
How odd we humans are! We have some sort of fanatic, the very kind that Jesus castigated, banging on about some finer point of ‘the law’, just like the Jews did, and we have ‘the Church’ doing much the same.
We have a feast coming up soon, the feast of The Assumption of our Blessed Lady into Heaven, and thankfully there is a Mass in the Latin Rite being celebrated at 7-30pm in a small town just 20 miles from me and I will be going to that…………..not exactly SSPX stuff but the feelings might be similar.
But I won’t be going so as not to commit Mortal Sin because that’s where even this old fashioned Catholic can, with clear conscience, dismiss that sort of falsehood, even if I’m in a church of one.
I try to lead a ‘good life’, to follow the teaching of Jesus specifically with regard to my fellow man, and I try also to conform to The Church, but St Paul was very clear when he warned, specifically the Laodiceans even though we don’t yet have that letter but must infer from exactly the same in John’s Revelation, that we will NOT be saved by ‘the law’, but by Christ.
Now all this ranting, particularly about SSPX, but elsewhere also, is just some terrible demands for conformity to ‘the law’ and very little to do with what Jesus actually taught.
I believe that to kill another human, to be unfaithful to a married partner, to lie and to steal from fellows, to do what many ‘investment bankers’ do, and I include some in the Vatican Bank here, will constitute ‘Mortal Sin’. But to lead a ‘good life’ and for reasons of internal struggle and conflict not to ‘go to Mass’ on Wednesday 15th August, or to eat meat on a Friday, is a mortal sin and will send me to Hell if I don’t confess that sin to a priest before I die and feel true remorse!………………well that’s just rubbish!
I’m sure that there will be some members of SSPX who WILL be damned and go to Hell, but I don’t believe that will be because of their internal struggle with conscience and teachings of a group of decoratively garbed canon law fanatics, it will be because of their hatred and spite and, just like the Pharasee who claimed all sorts of righteousness, their pride will be their downfall. And there will be many who claim conformity to not only ‘Vatican ll’; but the Church as well, of course, who will also be damned to Hell fires because of their hypocrisy, and not because they ate meat on one Friday back in the fall of ’83.
Or because they couldn’t face going to Mass on a particular day in the calender of The Church. Nah….I don’t buy that one, but then I might be wrong. If I am then this God is a very nasty god and that I don’t believe either.
Remember, He so loved the world that He sent His only Son to show us the way, and that’s very little to do with ‘the law’ and much more to do with our personal relationship with Jesus.
The Catholic Church can be a real hindrance to that relationship if we get bogged down in semantics and specifics particularly in regard to ‘the law’. Yes, I know that we do have to have a ‘set of rules’ to live by, but those have really been abused and defined ad nauseam over the centuaries and corrupted to demand conformity through fear and guilt and threat of punishment with the ultimate trump card: “Do what I tell you or your soul will burn in Hell for ever”.
As the soldiers, those rough and horrible men, drove the nails into His wrists and feet, Jesus looked on them and His demand was “Father forgive them for they do not know what they do”.I don’t need some Bull from the Vatican to tell me something that’s so obvious as to need no explanation. If I could have just one iota of those sentiments,,,,to ask my God to forgive those who not even drive nails into my hands, but who have broken my heart, then I would be starting to follow The Lord.
Eat meat on a Friday and enjoy the fires of Hell for eternity, might well be a misguided marketing slogan better suited to a health food organisation, but as far as salvation goes, that’s just rubbish. Much like the last rant from Lionel.
With Love, Paul
PLEASE SEE the previous comment and response that started this particular debate: CLICK HERE.
Following are the final remarks of Lionel Andrades, albeit heavily edited for comprehension.
LIONEL ANDRADES:
Fr. Jenkins is not admitting that we do not know people dead and saved in Heaven and that we cannot see those saved in invincible ignorance. Perhaps if he admits he agrees with me on this factual observation he thinks it will contradict some of the teachings of the Church.
Priests do not want to admit the obvious in public and so it is not likely that the Vatican will concede an error.
It is important for the SSPX to ask the Vatican cardinals and bishops if we can see the dead-saved and if they are explicit exceptions to the literal interpretation of the dogma on outside the church there is no salvation.
Fake Interview with Vatican Officials
LIONEL THE FEENEYITE ANDRADES: Your Excellency, some of the supporters of the SSPX are saying that Vatican Council II is a traditional document with traditional values on other religions, ecumenism and religious liberty. Would you agree?
LIONEL THE CONFUSED BISHOP: No, it is not.
LIONEL THE FEENEYITE ANDRADES: They say an error was made in the Fr. Leonard Feeney case which has influenced our interpretation of Vatican Council II.
LIONEL THE CONFUSED BISHOP: What is the error specifically?
LIONEL THE FEENEYITE ANDRADES: That we don’t know the dead saved in invincible ignorance and implicit desire. Since we do not know these cases they are not explicit exceptions to the actual interpretation of the dogma. They are irrelevant to the dogma.
LIONEL THE CONFUSED BISHOP: So what has this to do with Vatican Council II?
LIONEL THE FEENEYITE ANDRADES: So those saved in invincible ignorance or a good conscience (Lumen Gentium 16), elements of sanctification (Lumen Gentium 8), seeds of the Word are not explicit exceptions to the dogma outside the church no salvation. You would agree that we do not know these cases?
LIONEL THE CONFUSED BISHOP: Yes.
LIONEL THE FEENEYITE ANDRADES: So could the Vatican make an announcement that we do know these cases of the dead-saved? Vatican Council II does not contradict the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
LIONEL THE CONFUSED BISHOP: Yes. It is an objective fact. It cannot be denied.
LIONEL THE FEENEYITE ANDRADES: So once the announcement is made everyone will realize that we can all, SSPX and non SSPX, hold the traditional (heretical), rational (illogical) “Feeneyite” interpretation of Vatican Council II?
LIONEL THE CONFUSED BISHOP: Yes. Honesty demands it.
Dear Fr Joe,
My heart wept as I read that piece from Fernando.
You are right in that I suffer from mental illness and very rarely is mental illness simply slotted into a specific pidgeonhole. I can become paranoid especially if there’s a little bit of trigger out there. I may feel that I’m being followed and that feeling will be magnified when I’m going through a bad patch and someone actually ‘follows’ me, They might well be going in the same direction that I am and behind me either in traffic or just walking, but sometimes it is as if they are following me and something awful is going to happen. Also along with this tendency to not see reality too clearly some of the time, I also have periods of depression and it’s not so much the presence of anything bad or black or anything like that, it’s more the absence of anything good, and that includes GOD. It’s a very dark and hopeless place to be.
I expect that there are some members of SSPX who likewise suffer. There are some elements in what Fernando says that are quite correct, and I imagine that he, like I, find the extraordinary form of the Mass much more suited to the understanding of the institution of Sacrament than the New Rite.
Be that as it may, there is no room for vitriol and disobedience to the Church, unless, of course, one genuinely believes that the Great Apostacy has already happened. It has been predicted and we have been warned about it. Satan is given rule over this world and we can tell a tree by its fruit.
Now there are any number of Good priests out there, and I have already mentioned that out of the 5,000 odd priests in Ireland only about 80 were pedophiles and that’s just over 1%…however there should be zero, ziltch, none, not a single Father ordained into the Catholic Church who would commit such grievious sin. So I would contest that the fruit of the tree is good and wholesome, and the fruit of some ‘members’ of SSPX is filled with hatred and division.
However I too struggle with women administering Holy Communion, dressing in very revealing clothes, communion in the hand, some terrible music and the very Protestantised condition that I now see the Mass, I can cope with much of it, but not the terrible laisse fair way it’s gone locally with the aggrevating children becoming part of a sort of Holy Picnic. I would far rather attend a Latin Mass, but I do also take heed more of what Jesus said and my understanding of that than I do of not only the Magisterium, but also of the Pope.
I don’t believe that Jesus is the terrible Magistrate that the Catholic Church, and I include the SSPX here, seem to imply. I believe that He loves us and really does make allowances. After all, because the Jewish heart was too difficult to teach HE allowed divorce…..Jesus tells us that. He allowed David all sorts of leaway, He allowed all sorts of sexual indiscretion (apart from homosexual sex), and still the sinners were leaders.
And there were arguments between Peter and Paul, and any number of divisions throughout the whole history of the Church.
Would God make billions and billions of souls and then condemn them to Hell just because they hadn’t heard of Jesus…………….I’m certain that He would not, and I don’t care what the Pope says about it. If someone leads a ‘good life’ than the opportunity for salvation will be presented to them at the moment of their death……………and that’s all there is about it………….excommunicate me for heresy if you like but I’m not budging on that one, and I’m still a Catholic.
In my father’s house there are many mansions, if that were not so then I would have told you. The Catholics and the SSPX in particular may well think they have the monopoly on Heaven, but many will be sorely disappointed and far,far worse. And many may well be disgusted by God allowing ‘pagans’ into His Kingdom, but that will be their problem also.
The fruits of some members of SSPX are similar to some anti=catholics, some militant aethists, some extreme protestants and many others. Hatred and condemnation is not what Jesus was about and He tried very hard to ensure that His Apostles abandoned that trait when He sent them off to spread the Good News.
And the Good News is simply that The Gates of Heaven are opened for all Good Men who accept Jesus as redeemer and Saviour of the world, as he has warned that no one comes to the father except through me. How that’s done is between the deceased and their maker, and if it’s in Latin or English, if it’s done horribly with guitar and thumper of with a wind organ, it’s still good enough.
I reject the concept that God is trying to trick us and catch us out, and yet I still believe that satan is not excluded even from the Vatican, and I am convinced that he has influence even in those hallowed walls. We must always be alert but conform ourselves to Christ.
I may well let go of ‘the church’, especially the catholic churches locally, but, please God, I will never let go of my Saviour. Jesus is way, way beyond any man made institution, even if it is, or claims to be guided by the Holy Spirit. There have been some very bad popes in the past, and some very bad bishops and even cardinals.
We can only ever approximate the truth and The Catholic Church comes pretty close…..who knows if John 23rd was a mason or not, God does and that’s what counts.
With love,
Paul
Dear Father Joe: Recently, the Knights of Columbus is holding a pancake breakfast with FreeMasons. Also, there is Knights of Columbus willing to rent their Hall out to KKK and other liberal organizations which goes against the teachings of the Church. How can “catholics” take part in ecumenical services when they don’t even know their Catholic faith?
Dear Father Joe: Shouldn’t the “Church’s hand” make the “silent apostacies” a priority instead of picking on the SSPX? Think about it: The “hierarchy” was covering up, lying and protecting the rapes of innocent children and new seminarians while at the same time the “hierarchy” was excommunicating SSPX and other independent Catholics who are not sedevacantists.
EXCUSE ME, “FR. JOE”—
With all “due” respect:
I pray for you to come back to The One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church…
…The Church without which no salvation is possible…
…and whereby 2,000 years of consistent teaching and 4,000 years of God promising His Son to Redeem us and Jesus rising and ascending into Heaven, Himself promising The Holy Ghost to come and that being the beginning of The Catholic Church…
…as well as knocking out heresies that cropped up one by one with necessary and true Councils, which Vatican II was neither…
I recommend to you to FIND YOUR WAY BACK TO THE TRUE FAITH instead of throwing barbs and spreading [expletive deleted] information about where The Faith is found…
…because it is no longer found in Rome, and has not been since Vatican II…
…albeit with only a possible small minority of clergy who are not free and/or afraid to express their dissatisfaction for the Conciliar church openly.
I can “obey” my Mafia Boss (hypothetically, of course) who tells me to break the knuckles of a non-paying “client”, or I can say, “NON SERVITUM” and be killed for it. Well, I’d rather be a martyr for The True Faith, “Fr. Joe” in diobedience to the current “Don” who is validly elected and spreading heresies, rather than lead myself and others down the path of pride and error as you have succumbed to by rejecting the True Faith and Church promised By God the Father, His Son The Redeemer, and delivered through The Holy Ghost.
WHOM do YOU serve, “Fr. Joe?” You can’t have it both ways! I sincerely do pray for people like you who turn people away from The True Church and smear the Holy Work of The SSPX, and others. How “silly” is that?
or we could ask God to forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors. Na, too easy and would involve pride deflating humility.
Dear Fr Joe,
I doubt if I would have a problem with your Mass in English unless you too felt the need to allow hosts to drop to the floor, encouraged a general natter and get together before the start, promoted a policy of errant children, by the classfull, running riot during the service, suggested bringing in a full breakfast for fat parents to ensure the continuing fatness of their offspring, had a free for all with colouring books and crayons and all the argueing and bickering that ensues when badly behaved children are given free rein, insisted on talentless but misguided morons leading the congregation in pointless community singing accompanied by the cachophony of all manner of instruments specifically designed for anything other than church music and generally freaking out something that used to be sacred.
I have finally found the courage to reject, totally, all unhealthy control techniques that have been used over the years as an adjunct to the abuse that I suffered, and the classic top of the list were:”Fear, Shame, and Guilt.” The Catholic Church, in particular, has used all 3 in abundance. Jesus never did. The Church of England used to fine its parishioners for non attendance on a Sunday. The Catholic Church has a trump to that atrocity, it promises the fires of Hell because to loose those members of the faithful means a loss of revenue.
We really must ask the question why there are falling members not only of the faithful but of those called to the priesthood. I recently attended a reunion of school boys who left the same year as I did some 45 years ago. There were a little over 40 of us and all were notionally Catholic while at that boarding school. One became a priest, was convicted of abusing children and is currently in prison. Another is serving time for murder, one is a sort of lay preacher in a rather odd sort of prostentanism, and apart from one other who like me considers himself still to be a catholic, all the others, that’s some 38 in total or about 90% have totally rejected catholicism.
You might well say:”many are called and few chosen”, but I would suggest that any religion based on control by fear, threat, punishment, shame and inappropriate guilt, especially one claiming to be founded by Jesus himself, can not endure nor continue to attract rational and liberated thinking humans.
Yes, I am still a Catholic, I still believe that there is no salvation outside of Christ and for this catholic everyone, every created human, at his or her moment of death, will be given the opportunity to accept Jesus or reject Him just as the “good thief” did. The parable of the workers in the vinyard, told by Jesus to get over the important point, explains quite clearly that it’s not about building up brownie points throughout a life time of conformity and worn knees every Sunday and holyday and all days inbetween, it is based on our standing with Our Lord at that moment of death.
I hope that I will still be His friend at that moment of my death, even if I am not particularly well received by my church because of my struggles with what I see as abuses, not only with the new rite, but with the methods used to ensure conformity.
When the centurian said “Lord, I am not worthy…………….” Jesus was impressed by his faith, what He did not say to him is; “now you have to join my group and attend Mass every Sunday otherwise I’m going to send you to Hell.
Fr Joe, I do not choose to insult nor upset you, and my rejection of ‘going to Mass on a Sunday’ is specific to this area and my limited ability to travel. There are some lovely priests out there and there are some very misguided ones. One Priest locally is very misguided and not very nice, the other is misguided, very old, but lovely.
Sometimes I can attend simply to worship my Maker and offer up the torments for the souls in purgatory, some Sundays I can not. However I categorically refuse to accept that some of what the church teaches as Mortal sin really will deserve the fires of Hell.
As a confessor you must surely hear the repeated struggles of the faithful who use contraception, who support homosexual marriage, who fail to remain free from masturbation, and so too those who, in their struggles, even refuse to avail themselves of that sacrament any longer. The church would condemn them to Hell fires………my God would not. Call me heretic or misguided, that’s OK. I just have a slightly different understanding of Jesus than does the Catholic Church Proper, and that’s based on my life experiences and not the pontifications of The Magisterium.
With continuing love, Paul.
Dear Fr. Joe,
I know what the church has taught over the years and I also came up against some terrible abuses, and the mumbling of Mass in 12 minutes in Latin as well as the atrocities of hippy and folk masses in the vernacular, and I can no longer accept staying away from something I genuinely consider so far removed from the Holy Sacrifice as to be a sham in my understanding of what is required to ‘Keep the Sabbath Holy’. that I am unable to accept the mortal concept of any sin if indeed there is any sin at all.
A bit like the SSPX, I am willing to take my chance with my maker and dismiss the fear and control that the hierarchy of the established church has abused to maintain the upper hand.
The one thing that riled Jesus was the hypocrisy and abuse of position that the scribes and pharasies unfairly imposed on the ordinary members of the chosen race. The nearest real Mass is celebrated every Sunday but over 30 miles away and I really can not afford to attend that one, what happens within range is hardly a genuine Mass even if it conforms to the liberal interpretation of Vatican 2.
You and I will undoubtedly differ on that one just as the SSPX claim no salvation outside of the Catholic Church, and I know we’ve heard all about the buddha on the altar of John Paul 2’s Mass, but he did rather suggest that every good person would untimately get to heaven anyway.
There is a real difference between the behaviour of an adulterous husband, the murderer who kills a family, the banker who abuses his position of trust, the priest who abuses children, and my abstenence and my struggle to find a genuine Catholic Mass that sits well with my conscience.
No amount of dogmatic definition by any priest, bishop or even pope will convince me that my sin of staying away from a travesty of the Holy Sacrifice is on a par with any of these real Mortal Sins, but then I might be wrong……..Jesus knows and he also knows very well just what my struggles are.
One day all will be revealed, I put my trust and faith in the love and forgiveness of the founder of the Church rather than the men who control what is left of that church. There should be many priests and bishops trembling in fear of that judgement to come and I’ll join that queue and take my chance.
Might see you there too!
With love, Paul.
The Vatican announced Thursday that they are still awaiting an official response from the SSPX as to the outcome of its general meeting. There was speculation that the SSPX would fragment and that only part of it would reconcile. The news so far seems to indicate that whatever decision is made will be done so by the complete body. This would seem to mean that Bishop Fellay will be overruled. The Holy See saw the problems before now and Pope Benedict XVI appointed the wonderful Dominican theologian, Archbishop Augustine Di Noia, to take charge of negotiations for the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. He was one of my old seminary professors and a wonderful teacher. If there is any chance, he is the right man for the job.
The Holy Father has also named Bishop Gerhard Ludwig Mueller of Regensburg, Germany, as the head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. The SSPX were not happy about this and have labeled him a heretic for views about the Eucharistic real presence and inter-faith ecumenism. Bishop Mueller argued back in 2009 that he wanted the SSPX seminary in his diocese closed and thought the four SSPX bishops should resign and become simple priests “as part of the reparation for the damage that the schism has caused.”
Vatican Waiting for an Official Word From Lefebvrians
Holy See Has ‘Taken Note’ of Declaration From Society’s General Chapter
VATICAN CITY, JULY 19, 2012 (Zenit.org).- The Vatican announced today that it is waiting for an official response from the Society of St. Pius X in the latest development in Benedict XVI’s ongoing attempt to bring the traditionalist society into communion with Rome.
“The recently concluded General Chapter of the Priestly Society of St. Pius X has addressed a declaration regarding the possibility of a canonical normalisation in the relationship of the Society and the Holy See,” the Vatican statement noted. “While it has been made public, the declaration remains primarily an internal document for study and discussion among the members of the Society.
“The Holy See has taken note of this declaration, but awaits the forthcoming official communication of the Priestly Society as their dialogue with the Pontifical Commission ‘Ecclesia Dei’ continues.”
Various blogs have published translations of the SSPX declaration, which includes a reference to “all the novelties of the Second Vatican Council which remain tainted with errors.”
Who are you to criticize the SSPX? As a Novus Ordo minister, you are NOT even a REAL PRIEST! Your trite songs and bankrupt liturgy means nothing to me and is an offense to God. Just look at the picnic tables where you offer false worship and compare it to the sublime mystery of the Tridentine liturgy at a proper high altar.
You have women at the ambo, serving, and giving out communion. Their heads are not covered, their bosoms hang out and if they do not wear pants then they distract with skirts so short that the Mass becomes an occasion of sin for men. It sickens me and makes it hard to speak charitably. This is not my Church and this is not the real Mass.
The Pope is a Modernist and no genuine Catholic will take orders from this antipope and heretic! A number of priests and the faithful were ready to defect from the SSPX if they were to contaminate themselves in formal affiliation with the pagan and pedophile Church masquerading as Catholic. Thank goodness more sober minds prevailed and the Modernists were told to go to hell. There will be no reconciliation until the heretics of Rome come back to TRADITION. We will not change! We will not surrender the truth! We will not compromise! Assurances that Vatican II must be interpreted in light of tradition are a sham and an evil ploy to seduce orthodox Catholics to the other side. Modernist Rome permits divorce and annulments to all who apply! Modernist Rome redefines the priest as a presider and party celebrant! Modernist Rome multiplies Eucharistic prayers that are politically correct and Protestant. The Novus Ordo waters down the sacrificial nature of a genuine Mass. Modernist Rome turns altars around and places the emphasis not on Jesus but upon the face of their narcissistic clergy! Modernist Rome places its communion host in the dirty and sweaty hands of congregants as if there is nothing sacred! (By the way, this also risks the theft of the charlatan sacrament.)
The modern ordination rite is hollow and counterfeit. Now we have whole generations of fake priests and bishops who have no authority and have lost the sacrifice of the Mass. The Modernist Rome treats one religion like any other, as if it does not matter if one is a Roman Catholic or not! The Modernist Rome mingles with Protestants, Jews, Moslems, Hindus, Buddhists, and Atheists. Buddha finds a place on a so-called Catholic altar and a witch anoints the pope’s head with bird [expletive deleted]. The late pope also kissed the Koran, a book that espouses the murder of Catholics for the propagation of a false religion. How can anyone stand such apostasy?
You should rename your blog. You are not FATHER JOE or BLOGGER PRIEST. You are PROTESTANT MINISTER JOE! You are BLOGGER APOSTATE! The Church might be reduced to a few hundred priests and a few thousand believers. But that is okay. The Church started small and she can grow from this seed. The Novus Ordo Church is dying. It is infiltrated by pedophiles and homosexuals. The four marks of this counterfeit Church are clear: DIVIDED, UNHOLY, PROTESTANT, and PAGAN.
The SSPX today is the Roman Catholic Church. All others are outside the true Church. Novus Ordo Catholics have one foot in hell and commit mortal sin every time they go to their bastard Mass. Protestants are not in the true Church. Their baptism means nothing. But if they convert, you would not even offer them a genuine rebaptism. Sorry, but those who deliberately persist in such errors are not in the true Church and are outside the salvation for which Jesus died. Let me be blunt. Outside of the true Church there is NO SALVATION. The Protestant religion SAVES NO ONE! The covenant of the Jews has been replaced by that of Jesus. The old covenant of the law SAVES NO ONE! Moslems worship a false deity Allah and thus face DAMNATION! Hindus are like the ancient pagans and such false religion is an offense to God and brings DAMNATION! Along with the Buddhists, they are true idolaters and face DAMNATION!
Wake up before it is too late!
Thursday, July 19, 2012
THE SOCIETY OF ST.PIUS X HAS ACCEPTED VATICAN COUNCIL II IN ACCORD WITH TRADITION AND HAS REJECTED THE LIBERAL VERSION
The Society of St. Pius X (SSPX) has accepted Vatican Council II in accord with the literal interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus (1) in harmony with Ad Gentes 7, Vatican Council II. They have endorsed Vatican Council II according to Sacred Tradition. They can also cite reference texts from Vatican Council II to support their doctrinal position.
They have rejected, as in the past, the liberal version of Vatican Council (2) whose adherents cannot cite any texts to support their interpretation which is a break, a rupture with tradition and magisterial documents.
The SSPX is finally in a position to point out to their adversaries that there can be only one interpretation of the Council which can be supported by tradition. In this one interpretation AG 7 supports the dogma on exclusive salvation and LG 16 and LG 8 etc are not known exceptions to the dogma.
The SSPX has stated clearly that they have ‘faith in the Roman Catholic Church, the only Church founded by Our Lord Jesus Christ, outside of which there is no salvation and no possibility of finding the means that lead to it’.
There is no salvation outside the Church (Cantate Domino, Council of Florence 1441, Vatican Council II (AG 7) etc) and that outside the Church there is even ‘no possibility of finding the means that lead to it’ i.e those saved in invincible ignorance, a good conscience etc are accepted as possibilities known only to God and not possibilities which contradict the dogma on salvation, since these possibilities are not explicit for us. They are unknown to us humans.
As for the liberal interpretation of Vatican Council II which is a rupture from the past the SSPX rejects ‘all the novelties of the Second Vatican Council that remain tainted with errors’ e.g theology of religions etc which are opposed by Vatican Council II (AG 7).
They accept the Council and ‘the Society can only continue to abide by the statements and teachings of the constant Magisterium of the Church;’ which is in agreement with the Council and in accord with Tradition. It carries the hermeneutic of continuity. The SSPX ‘finds its guide in this uninterrupted Magisterium which, by its act of teaching, transmits the revealed deposit in perfect harmony with all that the whole Church has always believed, in every place’ and which is in agreement with Vatican Council II.–Lionel Andrades
The SSPX states:
1. This is why its seems to us opportune to reaffirm our faith in the Roman Catholic Church, the only Church founded by Our Lord Jesus Christ, outside of which there is no salvation and no possibility of finding the means that lead to it; in its monarchical constitution, willed by Our Lord, which means that the supreme power of governance over the whole Church belongs to the pope alone, the Vicar of Christ on earth; in the universal kingship of Our Lord Jesus Christ, the creator of the natural and supernatural order, to whom every human being and all society must submit.
2. As for all the novelties of the Second Vatican Council that remain tainted with errors, and as for the reforms that have resulted from them, the Society can only continue to abide by the statements and teachings of the constant Magisterium of the Church; it finds its guide in this uninterrupted Magisterium which, by its act of teaching, transmits the revealed deposit in perfect harmony with all that the whole Church has always believed, in every place.
Rome-SSPX: Declaration of the General Chapter of the Society of Saint Pius X sent to the Holy See
As announced in the press communiqué of the Society of St. Pius X’s General House on July 14, 2012, the members of the General Chapter sent a common statement to Rome. It has been published today.
http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/
SSPX COMMUNIQUE IMPORTANT FOR THE ARCHDIOCESE OF BOSTON AND THE FR.LEONARD FEENEY CASE
The Society of St. Pius X communiqué is important for the Archdiocese of Boston which seems to be in a cover up of the Fr.Leonard Feeney case. The SSPX affirms the ‘rigorist interpretation’ of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. It was Fr. Leonard Feeney who also affirmed the literal interpretation of the dogma on salvation and said there were no known exceptions. There were no explicit exceptions.
The SSPX realizes that the baptism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance are always unknown to us and so they cannot be an exception to the traditional interpretation of the dogma. This is the same position as the priest from Boston.
It was the Archbishop of Boston, Cardinal Richard Cushing who came out with a theory of the explicitly known baptism of desire etc. which were supposed to be exceptions to the dogma on exclusive salvation in the Catholic Church.
Presently there are two questions being asked of the Archdiocese of Boston and no one is answering them.
They perhaps know that if they answer those two questions it would result in the truth being known about the Fr. Leonard Feeney case. He was wrongly deprived of his priestly faculties for affirming the traditional teaching on the dogma and then he was excommunicated.
He and other Catholic professors were dismissed from Boston College because of their traditional Catholic views on outside the church no salvation.
Even until today the secular media refers to the baptism of desire being an exception and they claim Fr. Leonard Feeney is in heresy.
The SSPX communiqué has reaffirmed faith in the Catholic Church and the dogma and also clarified that there is no ‘… possibility to find the means leading to salvation’ outside the Church.
They are saying like Vatican Council II that all non Catholics need to enter the Church with Catholics Faith and the baptism of water for salvation and there are no known exceptions; Lumen Gentium 16 and Lumen Gentium 8 are not explicit exceptions to the dogma and neither are they exceptions to Ad Gentes 7.-Lionel Andrades
Dear Fr.Joe,
Perhaps you have already answered these two questions. However could you kindly clarify it once again?
1) Do we personally know the dead saved in invincible ignorance, a good conscience (LG 16) etc ? (No)
2) Since we do not know any of these cases, there are no known exceptions to the literal interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus ?(Yes)
If the Letter of the Holy Office made a mistake to assume that those saved with implicit desire etc are explicit exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus then an injustice was done to Fr. Leonard Feeney in Boston.
In Christ
Lionel
Dear Fr.Joe,
Thank you for your answer to the first question.
Yes obviously we do not know in general the people who are dead and in Heaven. We cannot see them or speak to them.
So while we accept in theory and in faith that there can be people saved in invincible ignorance and implicit desire we do know know personally, explciitly any such case.
So when the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus says every one needs to convert into the Church for salvation we do not know any exceptions. None.
Similarly when Ad Gentes 7 says that all need Catholic Faith and the baptism of water for salvation we do not know any exceptions. None. Would you agree?
The defined dogma on “extra ecclesiam nulla salus” says all need convert into the Catholic Church for salvation.
So this is a de fide teaching that everyone needs to enter the Church for salvation (to avoid Hell).
You have agreed above that we do not know any exceptions. Lumen Gentium no where says that we know any of these cases or that the dogma or AG 7 is contradicted. So the teaching of the Church after Vatican Council II is still the same. Similarly when Ad Gentes 7 says that all need Catholic Faith and the baptism of water for salvation we do not know any exceptions. None. Would you agree?
Fr. Joe,
You have agreed with me that we do not know any of the dead on earth. Yes?
We are not ‘spotters,’ we cannot spot people on earth saved with the baptism of desire or in invincible ignorance.
Those saved in invincible ignorance etc. are known as possibilities in Heaven and not actualities known on earth. They are accepted as possibilities being in Heaven and not as possibilities on earth. If they are in Heaven they cannot be physically on earth.
So we have agreed on this post that we do not know the dead. Since we do not know the dead how can there be any known, explicit salvation to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus?
If the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 which you have quoted assumes that those saved with an implicit desire etc are explicit exceptions to the dogma then is this not irrational. Are they not contradicting us?
I am a Catholic and not a member of the SSPX with whom I sympathize.
Dear Fr Joe,
Some of the Apostles went up to Jesus and told Him that there were some others casting out demons in His name and they tried to stop them as they were not from their group.
Now what did Jesus tell them?……………..He said “Do not stop them; those who are not against us are for us”.
If anyone were to dare to tell the truth then the Protestants are very much opposed to the idea of our Magisterium, and not only that they refuse to even accept 5 of our sacraments and yet many ‘modern’ catholics even break bread with these heretics.
If 60 million people say a foolish thing then it’s still a foolish thing, but if everyone in a marching army is out of step except my little Jonny then perhaps I should look to see if my perception of my little Jonny is wrong.
We claim unity with the Orthodox Churches, or at least some of them, and yet they are very different in their ceremonies and their disciplines.
It’s easy for the ‘modernists’ to knock the SSPX, and it’s not the first time the church has been at odds with the Pope, indeed we had three popes all claiming their right to govern at the same time, and a terrible corruption of several popes during the Medicci times with sons of popes being given positions within the hierarchy, so we can hardly claim a sterile and holy heritage for much of our history. even Peter and Paul argued about certain ‘important’ issues in the early church.
There was even a bizarre conversation on another catholic blog site where a so called expert told a troubled catholic that they had not made a valid confession because the priest said: “I forgive you of your sins” rather than “I absolve you from your sins”………………….moat in the eye seems to spring to mind.
I love the traditional Mass, the Mass that I grew up with, I hate what passes as a Valid Mass in the vernacular with screaming kids running around, erstwhile morons bashing seven bales out of a badly tuned guitar and teddybears and pasta being presented at the ‘high’ altar at the canon of the sacrament while the congregation enjoy a chinwag and errant children are stuffed with food brought in to make them fatter and appease their appetite for entertainment and distraction.
I stay away because I would rather endure the fires of purgatory than the purgatorial torments of the modern mass in these parts.
With love, Paul