The Catholic Church is NOT a Cult

24 Responses

Warren Malach, on April 22, 2013 at 6:41 pm said:

WARREN: Which “god”? Which religion? Your pope recognizes all gods and all religions.

FATHER JOE: More lies. There is no sin of religious indifferentism in Catholicism. You just cannot get enough. The God of the Jews is fully revealed in Jesus Christ. There is one God, one Mediator and one Church. I pray the dark spirit will be exorcised from your life.

WARREN: Who are “the saints”? Different religions and common usage of the term defines saints as “holy people” without distinguishing whether they are living or dead. However, in the New Testament the words “saint” or “saints” are ONLY used of LIVING Christians (Rom. 1:7).

FATHER JOE:

The word “saint,” has to do with holiness and such was made possible for believers by Christ who was the all holy one. Our Lord gave us something of the divine mystery or otherness of God. Later, the term was increasingly reserved to those who had run the race and had received the crown for faith and obedience and were now at the promised shore. This reflected the passage of time, human mortality and the challenge of martyrdom. Such is how the term is often understood today by the Church. We find such use in the Gospel of Matthew 27: 50-53: “But Jesus cried out again in a loud voice, and gave up his spirit. And behold, the veil of the sanctuary was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth quaked, rocks were split, tombs were opened, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. And coming forth from their tombs after his resurrection, they entered the holy city and appeared to many.”

WARREN: NEVER in Scripture is it said that prayers are addressed to dead “saints,” or that dead “saints” pray for others; in fact the Bible says that the souls of the people of God who are with God in heaven would NOT be aware of any prayers addressed to them: Is. 63:16: “Though Abraham was ignorant of us, and Israel [Jacob] does not acknowledge us.”

FATHER JOE: Isaiah 63:16 is translated as a conditional clause open to what might be a ridiculous hypothetical. It reads more clearly as, “For you are our father. Were Abraham not to know us, nor Israel to acknowledge us, You, LORD, are our father, our redeemer you are named from of old.” The extreme hypothetical is not being known by Abraham or disowned by Israel. There is confidence that God would never disown them. In a sense, it is assuming the very opposite from what Warren contends. Abraham is aware of his children. Israel will not disown its own. The context in this section of Isaiah in the Bible speaks of God coming in person to save his people. However, short of the incarnation, it can say no more. Matthew 22:31-33 validates that the dead are alive and thus are still members of the family of God: “ And concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.” When the crowds heard this, they were astonished at his teaching.” It should be added that one reason the saints are not clearly reckoned in the Old Testament as interceding for the living is that the righteous were still in the limbo of the fathers. It is only after Christ’s descent to the dead that they are lifted from their bondage and access is given to heaven. The saints of heaven are not helpless and intercede in love for those still in pilgrimage.

WARREN: The “prayers of the saints” mentioned in Rev. 5:8, etc. are the prayers of LIVING Christians on earth, NOT the prayers of the souls in heaven before the throne of God.

FATHER JOE: The apostles and patriarchs would likely have made up the 24 elders. Any apocalyptic vision of the kingdom would depict the joining of heaven and earth. Those on earthly pilgrimage request and receive graces from the intercessory prayers of the heavenly saints. We also pray with them in the unity of the Church. The prayers of the saints include both those of the living and the dead, although in Christ, all are alive. Divine worship and offering are rendered by creation, both angelic and human. The great of salvation is expressive of the joy that comes with our redemption by Christ.
Warren Malach, on April 22, 2013 at 4:16 am said:

WARREN: The Bible NEVER teaches that prayer should be addressed to anyone other than God, so in spite of the Catholic Catechism definition of prayer, the Catholic Church in practice redefines “prayer” in such a way as to excuse its carryover of polytheism from paganism, a polytheism especially to be noted among less-educated Catholics in the Third World.

FATHER JOE: As is so common among anti-Catholic bigots, readers should note the not so subtle racism in Warren’s remarks. It is not enough that he makes himself the master as to how we can approach and speak to God; he would belittle Third World Catholics as gullible and ignorant push-overs. This is similar to the prejudice that early Catholic immigrants faced from the Know-Nothings when they came to the United States. They accused them as a class of people of being intellectually ill-equipped or even sub-human. By contrast, Catholicism is the voice that cries out for human dignity and the sacred value of life. Of course, Catholicism is a religion of both the head and the heart. We are proud of our intellectual life and the fact that ours is a faith seeking understanding. While room is given for mystery, ours is a rational faith; there is no war or contradiction between faith and reason. Again, I will repeat that all genuine Christian prayer finds its proper object in almighty God. God is defined as three divine Persons in one divine Nature. There is no polytheism. Distinctions are clearly made between the respect given to creatures and the worship rendered to God.

WARREN: May the Lord rebuke you!

FATHER JOE: God bless you, too.
Warren Malach, on April 22, 2013 at 3:55 am said:

You are NOT a Christian, and that is only ONE reason why I wouldn’t pray with you, because you’re a PAGAN.

FATHER JOE:

I edited the text of extraneous material to show clearly your true sentiments. Given your hostile attitude, I will again ask you to take your poison of ignorance and deceit elsewhere. You sicken me. But I will try my best to keep Christ’s love in my heart and pray for you.

“Dear Lord Jesus, Warren comes here to pillage and destroy. His is the false voice which the sheep do not recognize and will not follow. And yet, there may be many who are only on the edge of the flock and might yet stray. Keep your people in your truth. Open his eyes to the fact that in attacking the Church, he assaults Christ in his Mystical Body. Bring him to the truth and soften his hardened heart. Shower him with grace and bring him to repentance for his sins. Help those of us who are wounded by his slander to forgive him as we know you have forgiven us. May the precious blood of our Savior Jesus Christ wash over us all. Amen.”
Warren Malach, on April 21, 2013 at 9:46 pm said:

WARREN: So from WHERE comes the redefinition of “prayer” by some Catholics that “prayer is a form of communication, a way of talking to GOD OR TO THE SAINTS”? The redefinition of the word “prayer” is used to uphold the Catholic teaching that prayer can be addressed to dead Christians, while in the Bible, prayer, an act of worship, is NEVER addressed to anyone OTHER than God. The Bible does NOT teach prayer to dead Christians.

FATHER JOE:

This ground has been covered before, and Revelation was cited where the saints’ prayers rise to God like incense. Warren, although he claims to have been a minister, has a very impoverished notion about prayer. He also suffers from a defective view of the communion of the Church. First, there are no dead Christians, not really. If such were the case then the atheists would be right. Our Lord has graced his people with eternal life. While our Lord spoke of the Father as the God of the living and not the dead, even prior to his redemptive work; Christ’s paschal mystery has released the dead and opened the way for us to enter God’s mansion of joy. Those who have left this mortal world need not be helpless if they share the reward of the righteous. These dead souls are actually living saints who continue to love and pray for those still in the world. Warren rejects any such unity in the Church. He finds both the communion of the saints and intercessory prayer as offensive. His is a privatized religion where the Church is dispensable; something that he has personally realized in jumping from one synod to another when it displeased him. I would not be surprised if he should keep jumping until he is in a “church” of one. If consistent, then he would deny any the right to ask prayers of another, on either side of the grave.

WARREN: Your own Catechism definition of prayer contradicts the teaching that prayers should be addressed to anyone other than God. What’s the point of the continuing this discussion? Your Church is idolatrous and polytheistic, just like the Mormon cult, and yet you wonder why as a Scriptural Christian I wouldn’t pray with you! Go figure…

FATHER JOE:

There is no contradiction. You condemn the Church established by Christ and sustained by His Holy Spirit. You will have to answer for that. Just because you say that the Church is idolatrous and polytheistic does not make it so. Indeed the very same catechism makes it very clear that Catholics worship the one God and not any pantheon of false deities. But it does not matter what the Church teaches or what correction might be given to your deceits. You have your mind made up. Our Mormon friends actually do suffer under a type of polytheism, although there seems a gradual movement away from it. While we seek to love them and dialogue with them, you employ the name of their sect as a means of condemning another religion, Catholicism. Well, at least there is a certain consistency in your stand since you say clearly that you would never pray with me. But, the tragedy goes far deeper, I would probably not pray FOR us either. How could you? You spend all your time condemning, slandering and hating. That leaves very little room for any prayer that would be acceptable to the true God. The genuine Scriptural Christians are Roman Catholics.
Father Joe, on April 21, 2013 at 7:59 pm said:

WARREN: This matter is easily dealt with when it is realized that the Catholic Church, like the other cults, can redefine terms to fit its own purposes.

FATHER JOE: Definitions are indeed important, but your understanding of the word “cult” and its imposition is what this debate is about. Shifting to secular dictionary definitions is merely a distraction, your way of avoiding the fraternal correction that came your way for falsely charging the Church of Christ and for committing blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. You condemn what God has made. Note that you avoid citing reputable theological dictionaries. Indeed, you are very selective about the definitions given.

WARREN:

Here are three online first definitions of prayer according to standard dictionaries:

1. Merriam-Webster Dictionary: “An address (as a petition) to GOD OR A GOD in word or thought.” (Emphasis added)

2. Oxford American English Dictionary: “A solemn request for help or an expression of thanks addressed to GOD OR AN OBJECT OF WORSHIP.” (Emphasis added)

3. Dictionary.com: “A devout petition to GOD OR AN OBJECT OF WORSHIP.” (Emphasis added)

FATHER JOE: Such definitions are not exhaustive. On my shelf is a copy of AN INTRODUCTORY DICTIONARY OF THEOLOGY AND RELIGIOUS STUDIES edited by Orlando Espin and James Nickoloff (published 2007). It makes a distinction between “liturgical cult” and “cults.” The definitions above refer to liturgical cult. Catholic theology has traditionally recognized three ranks: (1) latria – cultic behavior “due only to the Persons of the Trinity and the presence of Christ in the Eucharist”; (2) dulia – “honor shown to the saints and angels”; and (3) hyperdulia, the cult “accorded only to the Blessed Virgin.”

WARREN: All three definitions agree that “prayer” is addressed to a DEITY, and two out of the three definitions agree that prayer is an act of WORSHIP.

FATHER JOE: Actually, the definitions you quote do NOT say that cultic behavior is rendered ONLY to God, adding “or an object of worship.” The word “worship” here is not necessarily understood as divine worship. While such might refer to behavior formally directed to almighty God, they also reference prayers of petition (which would include intercessory prayers to saints).

WARREN: Even the modern Catholic Catechism defines “prayer” in #2559 by saying “Prayer is the raising of one’s mind and heart to GOD or the requesting of good things from GOD.” (Emphasis added)

FATHER JOE: The universal catechism is merely stressing the truth that all Christian prayer, even that which seeks intercession from the saints or which honors Mary, still targets as its proper object, almighty God. Catholics do not come to God alone. We approach in union with the pilgrim community of the Church and with the communion of the saints.
Father Joe, on April 12, 2013 at 2:24 pm said:

FATHER JOE: What is the so-called evidence for these ridiculous charges that the Catholic Church is a cult?

WARREN: Fourth, we can add “the blasphemy of saint worship by addressing prayers to creatures in addition to the Triune God, contrary to Scripture (Rev. 22:9).

FATHER JOE: Despite clarification about misstatements and ignorant appraisals, Warren just repeats himself over and over again. He has this false caricature of the Catholic faith that refuses to budge. I will say it once more; Catholicism does NOT render divine worship to creatures. We fully abide by the angel’s admonition in Revelation 22:9. However, the Bible does not reject intercessory prayer. While all prayer is directed to almighty God as its proper end; we can pray for and with one another. We are also permitted to request such prayers from others. Catholics ask members among the saints to pray for us because we have a profound confidence in the resurrection of Christ and how he has gathered us into the community of the Church. Death is no separation either from the Lord or from those who abide with him in our heavenly home.

There is a certain irony that you cite the book of Revelation given that it gives a great deal of support to the Catholic understanding of prayer or intercession offered by the heavenly hosts or saints on our behalf. The seven churches addressed, literally seem to have guardian angels. Directed to John, the heavenly visitor gives the salutation, “grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne” (Revelation 1:4). They are extending the grace and peace of God. We can ask for and have confidence in the prayers of the saints, both human and angelic.

“When he took it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones” (Revelation 5:8).

Our prayers are mingled with theirs.

Rev. 6:9-11 presents to us the holy martyrs who invoke God to enact divine judgment so that there might be justice. Such prayers of invocation are found throughout the Bible, but here they emerge from those on the other side of the grave.

“When he broke open the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slaughtered because of the witness they bore to the word of God. They cried out in a loud voice, ‘How long will it be, holy and true master, before you sit in judgment and avenge our blood on the inhabitants of the earth?’ Each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to be patient a little while longer until the number was filled of their fellow servants and brothers who were going to be killed as they had been.”

The heavenly saints are still praying for their brothers and sisters in earthly pilgrimage. We ask offer petition for their protection and the saints pray for and with us, trusting that God hears all prayer (Revelation 8:1-5). We, therefore, ask for their intercession and protection.

“When he broke open the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. And I saw that the seven angels who stood before God were given seven trumpets. Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a gold censer. He was given a great quantity of incense to offer, along with the prayers of all the holy ones, on the gold altar that was before the throne. The smoke of the incense along with the prayers of the holy ones went up before God from the hand of the angel. Then the angel took the censer, filled it with burning coals from the altar, and hurled it down to the earth. There were peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning, and an earthquake.”

God hears the pleas of his children, where ever they may be, on earth or in heaven.
Father Joe, on April 10, 2013 at 8:47 pm said:

FATHER JOE: What is the so-called evidence for these ridiculous charges that the Catholic Church is a cult?

WARREN: Third, there is “its elevation of a sinful human being to Church leadership in place of Christ.”

FATHER JOE:

It was our Lord who called Peter and the other apostles. It was Jesus who declared Peter ROCK and gave his apostles authority to forgive sins and to shepherd his flock. Your argument is not with me or Catholicism but with Jesus, himself. After his denial, Peter was healed by our risen Lord and restored to his commission which would be passed on to his successors in the Church (the popes):

“When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, ‘Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?’ He said to him, ‘Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.’ He said to him, ‘Feed my lambs.’ He then said to him a second time, ‘Simon, son of John, do you love me?’ He said to him, ‘Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.’ He said to him, ‘Tend my sheep.’ He said to him the third time, ‘Simon, son of John, do you love me?’ Peter was distressed that he had said to him a third time, ‘Do you love me?’ and he said to him, ‘Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.’ [Jesus] said to him, ‘Feed my sheep.’”

Christ is the supreme leader of the Church, albeit invisible. The Pope is the Vicar of Christ and the visible leader of the Church.
Father Joe, on April 10, 2013 at 2:28 am said:

FATHER JOE: What is the so-called evidence for these ridiculous charges that the Catholic Church is a cult?

WARREN: Number two, it teaches contrary to Scripture that works are necessary for salvation.

FATHER JOE: The teaching about saving faith in Christ cannot be separated from the need for obedience and charity.

James 2:22-26: You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. And in the same way was also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.

1 Corinthians 13:1-3: If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Matthew 7:21: “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my father who is in heaven.”

Mark 16:16: “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.”
Father Joe, on April 9, 2013 at 1:15 pm said:

FATHER JOE: What is the so-called evidence for these ridiculous charges that the Catholic Church is a cult?

WARREN: For one, its “use of extra-Scriptural sources of revelation.”

FATHER JOE: The Bible came from the Church, not the Church from the Bible. The Catholic Church was preaching the Gospel and celebrating the divine mysteries before the books of the New Testament were composed and collected. The oral traditions and so much more that resulted in the inspired Word were not entirely exhausted by the composition from such sources and/or intermediary writings. Thus along with the witness of the apostolic and patristic communities, patterns of structure and various teachings are carried forward through history to the present day. While the Scriptures occupy a primary place, our Sacred Traditions also represent a font of revelation and assist us in the interpretation of the Bible. We even have writings like Clement’s epistle to the Corinthians that is older than the Book of Revelation. That means that a successor of Peter or bishop of Rome, later called the popes, was teaching the faith and seeking to preserve unity and discipline in the Church before we even had a complete Bible. It is in this sense (given the antiquity and the immediacy of the Pentecostal experience) that the traditions of Catholicism or classical Christianity are far more reliable than those after the Reformation, like the writings and sermons of Luther or the Book of Concord. Indeed, the fact that Protestants worship on Sunday and retain the Creeds is evidence that the reformers did not turn their back on all Sacred Traditions. Accepting that their baptism is authentic, our “separated brethren” are still attached to Catholicism, even if somewhat tenuously.
Warren Malach, on April 8, 2013 at 11:50 pm said:

WARREN: I posted in this forum because of your refusal to admit that the Catholic Church shares several of the hallmarks of the cults, in spite of the clear evidence that the Catholic Church does the SAME thing as the cults.

FATHER JOE:

Catholicism uses the word “cult” in a non-pejorative fashion in speaking about particular devotions as to a saint or holy place. Sometimes it is used as a synonym for worship or ritual. When used in reference to religious movements, it has come to be seen in a negative light although originally it merely referred to small breakaway religious groups with teachings or practices that did not reflect mainstream Christianity, of which Catholicism is the most significant. Thus, we would not categorize Anglicans, Lutherans, Methodists, Presbyterians or even Baptists (as a whole) as cults. The term cult was associated with groups like the Seventh Day Adventists, Jehovah Witnesses, the Salvation Army, and the Latter Day Saints (Mormons). However, these groups could no longer be categorized as small. A cult also tended to give heightened authority to a particular individual, as with Ellen G. White and Joseph Smith. There are also significant divergences in doctrine. Mormons traditionally ascribed to a form of polytheism. Jehovah Witnesses denied the divinity of Jesus. Ministers in the Salvation Army could perform marriages but not baptism. Seventh Day Adventists denied the existence of a soul and reject the doctrine of hell. The word cult is also used in reference to New Age religion where Western and Eastern elements are wrongly mixed. Cults also typically exert a great deal of direct control over members, although this was never seen to include religious orders (as in the Catholic, Anglican and Eastern “churches”). The Church would teach the commandments and give moral guidance, but there is no day-to-day militaristic attitude or intrusion into the personal lives of believers. I recall a lay leader whose Charismatic community was shut down because he would interrogate the young teens, supplanting the authority of parents, in telling them whom they could date and demanding details about their behavior. It was none of his business and the bishop intervened to stop the harassment.

The marks of the Church are also significant in this discussion: one, holy, catholic and apostolic. While there is a fractured unity among Christians, the Catholic Church is one. The Church is holy because Christ is holy. The reference to “catholic” means that the Church is the universal vehicle intended by Christ for salvation. Catholicism has historical roots going back into antiquity and claims actual (not figurative) apostolic succession. As such the Catholic Church understands itself as founded directly by Christ. This takes it immediately out of the category of a cult, unless one figured that Jesus was not God but a charlatan. While great weight is given Mary, the apostles, and early Church fathers, the Church does not give unwarranted authority to its leaders, even to a particular man who ministers as the Pope. The emphasis is always almighty God. Men come and go; it is the Office of the Papacy that endures. The Pope is seen as the servant of the servants of God and the Vicar of Christ. The Pope along with the bishops in union with him forms a teaching authority or Magisterium. They can interpret and apply faith and morals; however, they cannot manufacture doctrine. All public revelation ceases with the death of the last apostle. The Church passes on the deposit of faith and it develops in terms of our reflection; but the deposit remains the same. Cults often embrace so-called new revelation. Catholicism argues that none can be obliged to accept what is sometimes called “private” revelation, as with seers and apparitions of Mary. There can be no conflict or reversal of public revelation.
Warren Malach, on April 7, 2013 at 2:28 am said:

Scripture teaches in Matthew 18:15-20 that sin should be confronted and dealt with by the Church.

FATHER JOE:

“If your brother sins [against you], go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother. If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that ‘every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector. Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Again, [amen,] I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything for which they are to pray, it shall be granted to them by my heavenly Father. For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.”

This is a public forum, and so it is understood that the communication is not one-on-one. You did NOT come here to discuss in any fashion where there is mutual respect. Indeed, you do not regard me as a brother in Christ and would not even pray with me. As for the Church, you attack her and changed your affiliation when the Protestant faith community moved away from affirming a hateful bigotry. As for excommunication, it is wickedly amusing that one outside the Catholic Church should want certain Catholics to join him by means of ecclesiastical expulsion. The text speaks about the value of prayer and such is realized in Catholic worship where our Lord is present in us, the Word and the sacrament. The Catholic Church deals with sinners in an analogous way to this passage. Reconciliation and counsel is usually in private, as stipulated in the Sacrament of Penance. Even if there should be no public censure, bishops and priests will often speak to people in private about the issues of dissent and scandal. These meetings are not advertised. If people still refuse to do what they should, and take Holy Communion unworthily, the moral fault is largely with the communicant. Some crimes, like abortion, bring about an automatic excommunication. The censure and the mortal sin would require the Sacrament of Penance to bring about healing. You are so eager to condemn that you are angry at Catholicism for not condemning enough to suit you. You really are a strange bird of contradictions.

The Catholic Church does not do this, thus proving once again that it is not based upon Scripture but upon human tradition.

FATHER JOE: You really do not know what the Church does. We do not go out of our way to publicize sin and scandal. The Church tries to bring forgiveness and healing. That was the whole point of the cited Scriptures.

Your “explanations” throughout these exchanges demonstrate that human reason is at the core of your Church’s teachings and not Scripture.

FATHER JOE: I have given you a taste of reason in this exchange. God is not opposed to thinking, you really should try it. Ours is not a blind faith but a faith seeking understanding. One cannot properly understand God’s Word without theological reflection and its proper application to our lives.

You make statements of Catholic doctrine such as that there are “seven sacraments” without any Scriptural support, because there is no Scriptural support for such statements, which are based upon human reason as expressed over time in human tradition, in spite of Christ’s warnings against following “the traditions of men.”

FATHER JOE:

The mysteries of God were instituted by Christ. This is the blog of a Catholic priest. My primary audience is Catholic. Obviously, I would take the value and validity of the sacraments for granted, all of which are shared by the Eastern churches. The sacraments, or divine mysteries as they were understood by the early Church, were eventually delineated by the Church into sacraments and lesser sacramentals.

BAPTISM – Matthew 28:18-20: And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”

CONFIRMATION – Acts 8:14-17: Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John, who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit; for it had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit.

EUCHARIST – Mark 14:22-24: And as they were eating, he took bread and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to them, and said, “Take; this is my body.” And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, and they all drank of it. And he said to them, “This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many.”

PENANCE – 2 Corinthians 5:18-20: All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. So we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We beseech you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

ANOINTING THE SICK – James 5:14-16: Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders [priests] of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.

MARRIAGE – Matthew 19:6: “So they are no longer two but one. What therefore God has joined together, let no man put asunder.”

HOLY ORDERS – 1 Corinthians 4:1: This is how one should regard us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God. / John 20:21: Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.”

Of course what I am saying will be reviled as “Catholic-hating” and “poison” because it strikes at the heart of the false teachings which demonstrate that the Catholic Church is a cult.

FATHER JOE: Do you even hear yourself talk? We have covered this ground before and I must really call an end to it. You are quick to attack me personally and to throw around the words “cult” and “anti-Christ.” Then you feign surprise when you are interpreted as offensive. Please get real, you are a Catholic-hater and words of hate do indeed constitute poison.

Catholicism is a separate religion from Scriptural Christianity and has its own deities, sources of doctrine, and human authorities separate from Scriptural teaching, but of course it still wants to “lord it over” Scriptural Christians by claiming to be the “true Church.” Its own teachings and practices show that it is counterfeit, just like the other cults.

FATHER JOE: Catholicism is the “Church” of Scripture and the apostles were our first bishop-priests. We worship one God, despite your polytheistic deception. The Church was given a teaching authority and you cannot stand that this Magisterium does not include you, exclusively. Since you use the word “counterfeit,” I would urge you to look at yourself. You cannot attack the Church in such terms and have any genuine communion with her or fellowship with Catholic-Christians. The Lord is God become flesh and it is in light of the incarnation that there is still this duality to the Church as a human institution composed of sinners and a divine body where mercy and grace is distributed.
Warren Malach, on April 7, 2013 at 2:10 am said:

I have given Scriptural arguments for my rejection of the Catholic Church.

FATHER JOE: You did not come here for discussion but for argumentation and attack. You have accused the Pope of being the anti-Christ, spurned the communion of the saints and veneration of Mary as idolatry and derided the Church as a cult. In otherwords, you have no respect for us as Christians. It is one thing to stand under the Word of God as its servant; however, you would falsely interpret it as its master.

The fact that you have taken such effort to “refute” me proves that my arguments are serious.

FATHER JOE: Actually, I appreciate the fact that you are serious, not that your arguments have any significant weight. It also worries me that your kind of hatred and prejudice often preys upon the ignorant. I was recently in an accident where I have had to take time to recuperate. That gave me the rare leisure to respond to your allegations.

All you can do is censor them and call me a “Catholic-hater,” which demonstrates your inability to deal with them and the need to resort to name-calling.

FATHER JOE: But you are a Catholic-hater, face up to it. I am simply making an objective judgment upon what you are about. I suspect you are “really” upset because I have come too close to the mark and it has shaken your denial.
Warren Malach, on April 6, 2013 at 9:00 pm said:

FATHER JOE: I am tired of arguing and responding to your repeated bigoted allegations. I have heavily edited this comment and would suggest that you either create your own blog or find one where you venom is welcome.

WARREN: You are a hypocrite.

FATHER JOE: It takes one to know one. To the extend that we are all sinners, yes, there is something hypocritical about any who would call himself a Christian. Please know that this poor priest will continue to pray for you.

WARREN: The Catholic Church, like the other cults, relies upon other sources of revelation than Scripture.

FATHER JOE: Catholicism relies upon what Christ gave us, a Gospel that is revealed in both Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture.

WARREN: The Catholic Church has dethroned Christ as Head of His own Church and replaced Him as “head” by a mere man, the pope.

FATHER JOE: Jesus Christ is still the head of the Church, albeit the invisible head. The Pope is Peter and Peter is the ROCK upon which Christ said he would build his Church. Fidelity to the Pope is faithfulness to Christ.

WARREN: The Catholic Church, like the other cults and other world religions, denies justification by faith.

FATHER JOE: No, actually the Church does NOT deny justification by faith. If you read with understanding the response to your last comments, this would be clear. Faith is more than a verbal profession but is a gift of God made possible by grace and linked to obedience and charity.

WARREN: The Catholic Church, like the other cults, sets itself up as the “True Church.”

FATHER JOE: Our Lord only spoke about ONE Church and historically the Catholic Church has the four marks in abundance. She is the Church instituted by Christ. Your church or ecclesial community was established by Martin Luther, princes, and later reformers and religious leaders. There is a big difference given that Jesus is God.
Warren Malach, on April 6, 2013 at 8:13 pm said:

The reference to how some Catholics promote the very sins which their Church criticizes reminds us that the Catholic Church will NOT practice Matt. 18:15-20 discipline of its members, but continues to commune unrepentant supporters and practioners of abortion and homosexuality. If the Catholic Church will not discipline its members by excommunication and suspension from Communion, why should anyone respect the Catholic Church’s teachings?

FATHER JOE: One of my old seminary professors was censured for a false Christology employing metaphor instead of analogies. Some few are censured, but the greatest punishment is mortal sin. Certain forms of excommunication are automatic and do not require any explicit action of a pope or bishop, as with abortion. Further, it makes little sense to expel those who have already left the Church. The Church is on the record as opposing homosexual acts and same-sex marriage. Homosexuality is defined as a disorientation. Abortion is murder. The shepherds of the Catholic Church are at the forefront of these battles. The Catholic faith teaches the truth but that does not matter to you. Your mind is blinded by bigotry and hatred. I would suggest that you go elsewhere to spraed your poison.
Pastor, on April 3, 2013 at 11:59 pm said:

What is the real face of Catholicism? All the promotion for abortion and homosexuality in the government is coming from prominent Catholics. Your church has done an awful job of religious formation. Catholics are among the most immoral people I know. They drink to excess and gambling is even a fundraiser for their churches. I warn our teens and young adults to stay away from Catholics. The girls wear immodest clothing and the boys want to bed every girl they see. Most Catholic couples I know are shacking and fornicating before they get married, that is, if they get married. Most Catholics go to no church on weekends, do not read the Bible and never pray. They treat religion like it is a club they have joined because they were baptized as babies or because they are Irish or Italian or Spanish. In truth, they do not know Jesus Christ. Those who come back to the practice of their religion are no better because Catholicism worships a false God. The church can’t save you. The pope can’t save you. Mary and the saints can’t save you. Only Jesus can save you.

Saving grace comes all at once. Once saved, always saved, works of obedience no longer matter. It is inconsequential what I do or fail to do once I have accepted in faith, Jesus Christ, as Savior and Lord. There is no process of justification. It is immediate and assured. The point is not that I am good but that Jesus Christ is good. It is in Jesus Christ that sinners are counted as righteous. I can be a murderer or rapist, but Christ’s grace will bring me to heaven. I am counted as holy because Christ is the holy one. Catholics wrongly give an emphasis upon obedience, works and change. My faith in Jesus is real. I am saved by Christ’s fidelity and his sacrifice on the Cross. Like the thief on the cross beside him, and there was no opportunity for a virtuous life, it was enough to call out to the Lord. The response of Jesus was immediately to the point, “This day you will be with me in paradise.” Notice that he did not say, “Sorry, too late, you need to do some good works first or recite some Hail Mary prayers.”

Justification is a juridical act of God. The concord of evangelicals and certain liberal Lutherans and Episcopalians with Catholics merely illustrates their own doctrinal deviation and corruption. We should not be dialoguing with Catholics but rather debating and refuting their many heinous errors and senseless practices. Ecumenism with its religious indifference and/or relativism is one of the greatest dangers to true faith facing us today. One does not try to come to a “gentleman’s agreement” with the minions of Satan or the Antichrist. It is a sin even to pray with false believers. It compromises the truth of the Christian message. I am not saying that there are not a few real Christians within Catholicism; however, they are such because of ignorance and in spite of Catholicism, not on account of it. The Catholic church is a global cult. They violate Scripture and inhibit knowledge of God’s Word among their membership. The pope has even prayed alongside representatives of world religions which make no pretense about rejecting Jesus Christ. He enters synagogues and kisses the Koran. He mingles with Buddhists and Hindus. They all urge good works and reduce Christianity (or their false version of it) to one religion among many. I refuse to worship false gods!

Does the Bible give us even one instance of lawful prayer to anyone or anything other than the triune God fully revealed in Jesus Christ? No! Catholicism worships a pantheon of deities under the guise of Mary, the saints and angels. Catholicism masquerades as monotheistic, but it is more like Hinduism and Mormonism.

FATHER JOE: You seem to be mimicking or echoing Rev. Malach. Rather than repeat myself, I think there is an ample rebuttal in my response to him. Ah, “bigots of a feather, flock together!”
Warren Malach, on April 3, 2013 at 11:53 pm said:

So you like the liberal ELCA, which now condones abortion and homosexuality, and the LCMS, which has also changed its doctrine and practice? I can understand this, because the Catholic Church has changed its doctrine and practice as well, also succumbing to Modernism. Yes, I am a member of the Wisconsin Synod; unlike the other “Lutherans” and the Catholic Church, we don’t change our doctrine and practice to conform to the secular society.

FATHER JOE: Rev. Malach, it seems that you delight in bullying and putting words into other people’s mouths. The LCMS may indeed be liberal, and this is unfortunate, but you are no better with your angry rhetoric. Such brings personal disgrace to you and casts a negative light upon the Wisconsin Synod which you represent. I am a Catholic priest and my loyalties rest entirely in that camp. Does it bother you that the moral values of Catholicism and your Synod on issues like homosexuality and abortion are the same? You keep speaking about the Catholic Church changing doctrine, but this is an unfounded slur. It is curious that you use the term “Modernism” in that it is usually thrown around in traditionalist Catholic circles. Some of these critics would likely condemn you as outside the true Church and quote the Council of Trent against you. Ironically, the traditionalists are angry that the vernacular Mass looks too much like the Lutheran worship service, at least in some external respects. I actually have some respect for the Wisconsin Synod; but do not worry, I am not expecting you to show any reciprocal respect to Catholicism. I am sure it is beyond your aptitude for civility.

Your information is wrong; I am no longer a retired Lutheran pastor.

FATHER JOE: Your history is your history, no matter how much you might want to run away from it.

I applied Rom. 16:17 to the LCMS because of its heterodoxy, including its rejection of the confessional Lutheran identifcation of the papacy as the fulfillment of the Scriptural prophecy of the Antichrist, and left it.

FATHER JOE:

Here is firsthand evidence that personal interpretation of biblical truth continues to fracture the Protestant pie into ever smaller slices. It seems then that your fight is more with Lutheranism than Catholicism. You left your faith confession because they failed to share your hate and prejudice against the papacy. Your religion is less “for” something than it is “against.” You might as well write this sick motto above the door of your home, which now for all intensive purposes is your church, “Any friendship with the papists makes you a papist!”

As for Romans 16:17-20, the apostle is urging the Christian community to avoid causing factions, the very thing that you are doing. Yours is not fidelity to these verses but realization of the very danger about which they warn. You stand convicted by them!

We read: “I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who create dissensions and obstacles, in opposition to the teaching that you learned; avoid them” (verse 17). The teachings were given to a community and that community holds the truth as brothers against individuals who think they know differently. Admittedly, my faith is not informed by any group of Lutherans but rather by the teaching authority of the Catholic faith community. Nevertheless, by your personal angry and prejudiced rhetoric, you “create dissensions and obstacles.”

Verse 18 (which you omit) asserts: “For such people do not serve our Lord Christ but their own appetites, and by fair and flattering speech they deceive the hearts of the innocent.” Rhetoric works both ways, flattering to some and insulting to others. But made into your own measure, your words reflect an “appetite” or animus in favor of polemics against Catholicism. You feel a sick need to define yourself by your historic prejudice which fractured Christianity.

I for my part would seek to fulfill verses 19-20: “For while your obedience is known to all, so that I rejoice over you, I want you to be wise as to what is good, and simple as to what is evil; then the God of peace will quickly crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you.” You would condemn an institution committed to Christ and label it as the house of Satan. While individuals may struggle with sin, the Church remains the house built by Christ. Our Lord has promised that it will endure no matter what until the final consummation.

The pope prays with representatives of other world religions, demonstrating that they are all in agreement on the way of salvation, good works, and that the Catholic Church is just one of other religions equal before their various “gods.”

FATHER JOE:

This reminds me of the reprimand against Lutheran Pastor Rob Morris and his subsequent apology for participation in the interfaith vigil for victims of the Newtown school shooting in Connecticut. A child from his parish, Christ the King Lutheran Church, was among the many young victims. Both the Wisconsin and the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod have similar regulations against joint worship services. The apology shocked people already hurting. However, something similar happened after 9-11 when a minister in New York was reprimanded and suspended for involvement in an interfaith service for the thousands murdered in the terrorist act against the World Trade Center. I suspect that your criticism of Catholicism has to do with the Assisi Conferences. While there were several instances where those orchestrating the effort miscalculated or lost control, something Pope Benedict XVI corrected (2011), the intent was to replace hostility and violence between religions with peace and understanding. Subsequent Catholic doctrine and true worship remain the same and were neither paganized nor protestantized. Priests and lay Catholics alike are not supposed to actively participate in non-Christian and non-Catholic worship. Interfaith services can pose a particular problem, especially if the ritual of any specific denomination or religion is employed. Outside of formal rituals, individual Catholics are permitted to pray with and for other Christians, indeed, I used to pray the psalms with a Jewish friend. But I was not vested and there was nothing said or done that was an affront to Catholic faith. Locally, the government gives pastors the opportunity to pray before the opening of legislative sessions, just as in Congress. I took exception to the current local county and state policy which dictates in writing that the prayer must be universal and the priest or minister is forbidden to say the name, JESUS CHRIST. I complained bitterly. Indeed, a Baptist minister and I mentioned the saving name of our Lord and Savior “Jesus Christ” and neither of us have been invited back. I see little problem with individual ministers and laity offering their own prayers as long as any semblance of religious relativism and/or indifferentism can be avoided. If Catholics and Protestants cannot share their faith and love in Jesus Christ, then something has gone very wrong with religion.

Mark 9:38-41: “John said to him, ‘Teacher, we saw someone driving out demons in your name, and we tried to prevent him because he does not follow us.’ Jesus replied, ‘Do not prevent him. There is no one who performs a mighty deed in my name who can at the same time speak ill of me. For whoever is not against us is for us. Anyone who gives you a cup of water to drink because you belong to Christ, amen, I say to you, will surely not lose his reward.’”

I am now a layman in the Wisconsin Synod. I repudiate the “office of ministry” I held in the LCMS because that synod is heterodox. By the way, I no longer live in WA either.

FATHER JOE: No matter whether you live in Washington or California or anywhere else is insignificant to this discussion. What remains pertinent is your state of denial about your ministerial past and your repudiation of a branch of Lutheranism to which you belonged.

You come across as a typical “liberal” Catholic priest, doctrinally indifferent because of modern Catholic ecumenism.

FATHER JOE: Anyone who knows me knows that there is little about me that is liberal. Ecumenism may sometimes be reflected in how our doctrines are formulated, but the truths remain the same. We do not subscribe to religious indifferentism. Our appreciation of doctrine develops but the deposit of faith is fixed. The object of ecumenism is twofold: (1) to live and cooperate with others for a more moral and loving society where there is mutual understanding; and (2) to heal historic divisions so that separated brethren might return to full communion with Mother Church. Protestants were the first liberals for breaking away from Catholic unity. It is said that even Martin Luther lamented the fracturing from what started as a reform effort: “My God, my God, what have I done? There are now as many churches as there are heads!” Certain Protestant churches continue to move futher and further away from the Catholic truths with which they originally absconded. We see this particularly in the moral life: divorce and remarriage, fornication, homosexual lifestyle, abortion, euthanasia, etc. Catholics are also guilty of these wrongs but the Catholic Church still teaches that they are sins. Certain “progressive” Protestant faith communities neither censure adultery nor homosexuality, even allowing those guilty of such to be ministers or bishops.

If you can put Barth alongside of Acquinas, you demonstrate the truth of this statement.

FATHER JOE: Did I say that they were always compatible? No. But it is a testimony to trying to understand and to promote the intellectual life. That is why Luther’s 60 volumes is also on my bookshelf. But the weight is still with the Bible and the universal Catholic Catechism. You evidently stopped trying to understand a long time ago. You are not about building bridges but about burning them down.

Your Church is no longer the Catholic Church prior to Vatican II. The only “Catholics” worthy of respect are the Traditionalist Catholics, who, although heretical from the standpoint of Scripture, did not change when their liberal leadership did.

You have nothing to offer a Scriptural Christian with your ecumenist drivel. You and your “Church” are of the world and reflect the world.

FATHER JOE: This comment is so illogical and convoluted, given your overall stance, that it only proves to show how self-serving your views actually are. Given that my faith is very conservative or traditional, i.e. orthodox, comparisons can be very deceptive or misleading. Of course, I suspect that it is not the traditionalism that you admire but the fact that certain traditionalists are dissenters against the Pope just as you are. Of course, they offer feigned loyalty while you renounce him altogether. In that sense, your arrogance and bigotry is more honest, even if still offensive. Having said this, except for sharing a restrictive ecclesiology, the Latin traditionalists are much closer to the truth than you and have valid orders and sacraments. You do not even recognize a lasting ordained priesthood and would reduce the number of sacraments. You keep accusing the Church after Vatican II of changing doctrines, and yet while disciplines can vary, Church teaching remains what it has always been. It may be that certain teachings are emphasized and others less so with the flow of historical tides. Your forebears must take the blame or credit for the Protestant Reformation; however, Vatican II was no rebellion against the Church of the ages. The truth will always be the truth.

The Bible doesn’t teach salvation by faith alone? How about Rom. 1:17, 3:28, 4:5, 5:1, etc., etc.? Nothing but faith is mentioned in these passages, as well as others.

FATHER JOE:

These passages certainly speak about faith. But you are wrong that these passages, in proper context, do not refer to much more.

Romans 1:16-17 – For I am not ashamed of the gospel. It is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: for Jew first, and then Greek. For in it is revealed the righteousness of God from faith to faith; as it is written, “The one who is righteous by faith will live.”

The verses emphasize salvation through faith, but the word “alone” never appears either here or in the other passages you cite. One must also properly define faith. It is not simply a verbal expression or a mental deliberation. Catholics define faith as obedience in Christ. This obedience is rooted in charity. While others might take offense, the believer should not be ashamed to proclaim Christ crucified. Righteousness is both one’s standing before God and how one lives his or her life. Salvation comes first to the Jews and now to the entire world. The term of this salvation is not membership in a people by virtue of the shared blood in their veins but through faith and adoption into a new people by communion in Christ’s blood. Verse 17 grants that faith focuses on the person and saving activity (death and resurrection) of Christ. His righteousness has been revealed in salvation history. The footnote of the New American Bible asserts: “Faith is affirmation of the basic purpose and meaning of the Old Testament as proclamation of divine promise (Romans 1:2; 4:13) and exposure of the inability of humanity to effect its salvation even through covenant law. Faith is the gift of the Holy Spirit and denotes acceptance of salvation as God’s righteousness, that is, God’s gift of a renewed relationship in forgiveness and power for a new life. Faith is response to God’s total claim on people and their destiny. The one who is righteous by faith will live.”

Romans 3:21-27 – But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, though testified to by the law and the prophets, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction; all have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God. They are justified freely by his grace through the redemption in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as an expiation, through faith, by his blood, to prove his righteousness because of the forgiveness of sins previously committed, through the forbearance of God—to prove his righteousness in the present time, that he might be righteous and justify the one who has faith in Jesus. What occasion is there then for boasting? It is ruled out. On what principle, that of works? No, rather on the principle of faith. For we consider that a person is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

It is here we find a discussion of the dichotomy between faith and the works of the law. Faith in Christ brings atonement through the righteousness of Christ. The issue is deeper than faith alone, but rather the free grace of God which is given as a benefit of faith for expiation by the blood of Christ. Works of charity are also expressions of a saving faith in Christ. A distinction is made between Christian faith, with all its accompanying dynamics, and the law given for membership and good standing in Judaism. The problem was not with God but with humanity’s hostility to God. Jesus seeks to heal this conflict. Apart from Christ, we cannot be holy or merit justification.

Romans 4:1-6 – What then can we say that Abraham found, our ancestor according to the flesh? Indeed, if Abraham was justified on the basis of his works, he has reason to boast; but this was not so in the sight of God. For what does the scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” A worker’s wage is credited not as a gift, but as something due. But when one does not work, yet believes in the one who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness. So also David declares the blessedness of the person to whom God credits righteousness apart from works.

This passage must be weighed with James 2:14-24:

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, and one of you says to them, ‘Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,’ but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead. Indeed someone might say, ‘You have faith and I have works.’ Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works. You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble. Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works. Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, ‘Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,’ and he was called ‘the friend of God.’ See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.”

James was making a blow against extremists like you who used the teaching about justification as a defense for false moral presumption. James is not denying the value of faith or the fact that it grants us a share in the divine life. He is essentially giving the Catholic view which you ridicule. We only have faith and are only saved because God takes the initiative. He sends the Holy Spirit upon us. We could not profess that Jesus is Lord without the grace of God and the movement of the Holy Spirit. Faith and grace makes possible a transformation. We are restored to the likeness of God in Jesus Christ.

Romans 5:1-5 – Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access [by faith] to this grace in which we stand, and we boast in hope of the glory of God. Not only that, but we even boast of our afflictions, knowing that affliction produces endurance, 4and endurance, proven character, and proven character, hope, and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out into our hearts through the holy Spirit that has been given to us.

Karl Barth once defined Catholicism as the religion of the GREAT AND, reminding all that one truth (like faith) is often interlocked or connected to other truths (like grace, works, peace, hope, love, patient endurance, the role of the Spirit, etc.) Here the text speaks about the three theological virtues: FAITH, HOPE and LOVE.

The Joint Statement on Justification was another typical “convergence” statement by theological liberals, papering over longstanding theological differences. Since neither side really follows the Bible, the statement merely represented human opinion in trying to complete the prior agenda of agreement based upon doctrinal indifference: theology by “drinking beer togethe,” as you describe your own “ecumenical relations.”

Salvation is by grace through faith (Eph. 2:8-9) and not by works either before or after grace. The Catholic Church, like the cults and other world religions, denies justification as a forensic act of God and teaches that justification is a “process” which involves works. The statement on justification agreed to by the Catholic Church and liberal Lutherans is a denial of Scripture brought about through the doctrinal indifference of ecumenism.

FATHER JOE:

Actually, it was an honest attempt to look at the Scriptural teaching as it had been formulated by the Church and Lutheran ecclesiological communities. Putting away, on both sides, the polemics of anathema, they defined terms and came to an appreciation that they were not as far apart as extremists would have us believe. Much of the work examined the history of the debate. The Lutherans appreciated that justification had to be more than juridical or forensic but also implied being “born again” and a transformation or change. Catholics came to an awareness that the Lutheran emphasis on faith did not deny the need for charity and obedience. Both sides appreciated that we are not save simply by works but by the grace of our Lord. We cannot save ourselves. In the past both sides so emphasized certain points that a sober discussion was difficult or impossible. Modern biblical scholarship also assisted us in discerning a fuller appreciation of the teaching. Below are seven propositions from the joint agreement on Justification. Where is your disagreement?

19. We confess together that all persons depend completely on the saving grace of God for their salvation. The freedom they possess in relation to persons and the things of this world is no freedom in relation to salvation, for as sinners they stand under God’s judgment and are incapable of turning by themselves to God to seek deliverance, of meriting their justification before God, or of attaining salvation by their own abilities. Justification takes place solely by God’s grace.

22. We confess together that God forgives sin by grace and at the same time frees human beings from sin’s enslaving power and imparts the gift of new life in Christ. When persons come by faith to share in Christ, God no longer imputes to them their sin and through the Holy Spirit effects in them an active love. These two aspects of God’s gracious action are not to be separated, for persons are by faith united with Christ, who in his person is our righteousness (1 Cor 1:30): both the forgiveness of sin and the saving presence of God himself.

25. We confess together that sinners are justified by faith in the saving action of God in Christ. By the action of the Holy Spirit in baptism, they are granted the gift of salvation, which lays the basis for the whole Christian life. They place their trust in God’s gracious promise by justifying faith, which includes hope in God and love for him. Such a faith is active in love and thus the Christian cannot and should not remain without works. But whatever in the justified precedes or follows the free gift of faith is neither the basis of justification nor merits it.

28. We confess together that in baptism the Holy Spirit unites one with Christ, justifies, and truly renews the person. But the justified must all through life constantly look to God’s unconditional justifying grace. They also are continuously exposed to the power of sin still pressing its attacks (cf. Rom 6:12-14) and are not exempt from a lifelong struggle against the contradiction to God within the selfish desires of the old Adam (cf. Gal 5:16; Rom 7:7-10). The justified also must ask God daily for forgiveness as in the Lord’s Prayer (Mt. 6:12; 1 Jn 1:9), are ever again called to conversion and penance, and are ever again granted forgiveness.

31. We confess together that persons are justified by faith in the gospel “apart from works prescribed by the law” (Rom 3:28). Christ has fulfilled the law and by his death and resurrection has overcome it as a way to salvation. We also confess that God’s commandments retain their validity for the justified and that Christ has by his teaching and example expressed God’s will which is a standard for the conduct of the justified also.

34. We confess together that the faithful can rely on the mercy and promises of God. In spite of their own weakness and the manifold threats to their faith, on the strength of Christ’s death and resurrection they can build on the effective promise of God’s grace in Word and Sacrament and so be sure of this grace.

37. We confess together that good works – a Christian life lived in faith, hope and love – follow justification and are its fruits. When the justified live in Christ and act in the grace they receive, they bring forth, in biblical terms, good fruit. Since Christians struggle against sin their entire lives, this consequence of justification is also for them an obligation they must fulfill. Thus both Jesus and the apostolic Scriptures admonish Christians to bring forth the works of love.

It is a falsehood to say that the Catholic Church is the “mother church or established the Bible. The Bible exists because of the soverign will of God who called certain individuals to write down His Holy Word, not the will of sinful men in visible institutions. The early church–NOT the same thing as the modern Catholic Church–being composed of sinful, errant people, adopted the Septuagint version of the Old Testament including books which Christ and the Apostles NEVER quoted or recognized as Scripture, and this church took CENTURIES to finally come up with the canon of the New Testament, thus demonstrating that it was not “led by God” in its deliberations.

It doesn’t matter what liberal mainline “Christian” denomination you are part of, you are all part of the same “falling away” from Scriptural Christianity, and you will of course recognize the “validity” of each other’s church bodies because you are fundamentally all the same anyway.

FATHER JOE: The Catholic or “universal” Church is the Church established by Christ. The apostles were the first bishop-priests of this Church. The Eastern churches also share in this apostolic succession. Lutheranism does not. The Church collected the writings of the apostles and evangelists. She took to herself the Greek Old Testament used by the diaspora Jews. Every time the Old Testament is quoted in the New, the Septuagint was used (Alexandrine canon) with its complete canon of books still used in Catholic bibles to this very day. The oral tradition also had to be composed. This entire process was inspired by the Holy Spirit: the human authors, the collection of the works, and the canonical listing agreed upon by bishops at Hippo (393 AD). The Church had survived the martyrdoms and persecution of pagan Rome. She would eventually become the new faith of a new empire. Again, it was the Catholic Church that preserved the Bible with copyists and preaching. She passed the Bible through history so that later generations might possess it. Protestants would have the benefit of the printing press. Yes, the Bible is a Catholic book and today Catholics, Jews and Protestants work together to translate and to give commentary. God’s Word emerges from and is given to the Church, not loosely connected individuals. You would make the Church dispensible and such was not even the teaching of Luther. Forgive me for saying it, but your views are so anti-establishment that I have to wonder: did you really leave the ministry or were you thrown out?

The New Testament warns about a “falling away” from the Christian Faith and that it would come right after the Apostles, which happened in “early church” and then through the false teachings of the later Catholic Church.

FATHER JOE: The Catholic Church has preserved the faith. Almost 1,500 years later we had the Protestant reformation and the beginnings of Lutheranism. The early Church faced many heresies: Gnosticism, Arianism, Nestorianism, etc. But the Catholic Church is still here. Not everything about Lutheranism is false. But, let us be honest, you really do not represent Lutheranism. You are a defrocked minister who wants religion purely on his own terms, no matter what the Church or any denomination dictates. You seem to get off by ignoring charity. I am pugnacious myself, but I struggle every day to remain obedient and faithful to Christ and to his Church. The trouble may be that there is more than false teachings about you; but rather, that you as a person who will stand before God may be false. I will pray for you, no matter whether you want it or not.

[PERSONAL ATTACK DELETED]

FATHER JOE: Well, you have really shown your stripes here. Unable to discuss matters civilly, you have turned to derogation and personal attacks. Again, it says a lot about you. I will say it again, I will pray for you. Given that it is a command from Christ, I will try my best to love and forgive you.

I worship the Triune God of the Bible, not Mary and saints through “hyperdulia” and “dulia.” The Cathollic “heaven” is like the pagan Mount Olympus rather than the Scriptural heaven, with its different levels of “godhood.”

FATHER JOE: The distinctions about worship or reverence are important. Divine worship is not given to creatures. We do not worship Mary as a goddess but honor her as the Handmaid of the Lord and the Mother of Christ. She plays a singular role in salvation history. Martin Luther, particularly during his Catholic phase, wrote a beatiful defense of the Blessed Mother. Are you familiar with it? Your anti-Catholicism is crude and dishonest. As for heaven, that is defined as where God is. The saints share the beatific vision and give God eternal glory. There is no Greek interpretation of paradise with toga-dressed Olympian figures strolling carelessly around. You are going out of your way to be nasty.

Where in the Bible does it teach that prayers are to be addressed to anyone other than the Triune God?

Prayers addressed to the saints are blasphemous idolatry, proving that the Catholic Church is really polytheistic in practice, with Mary and the saints as “demigods” under the Triune God.

Here again the Catholic Church is closer to Mormonism with its many “gods.”

FATHER JOE:

Like so many anti-Catholics you attack the Church by fabricating a straw man Catholicism that you can readily tear down. Prior to the coming of Christ, the souls of the dead awaited their Savior in the limbo of the fathers. Christ now bridges the gulf caused by sin and the souls of the just have entry into paradise. The saints (living and dead) can pray for their brethren. I will repeat once more, all Christian prayer has as its object almighty God. Intercessory prayer is the type of oration which seals the Church as a community of love. We are all connected. Look at Revelation 5:8. The heavenly saints offer our orations to God as “golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” They are necessarily aware of our needs and they love us. They intercede to God with our petitions.

Intercessory prayer is NOT idolatry. The fact that you dismiss the value of the Church is the reason why you can see no value in such prayers. Catholics value the Church as the Mystical Body of Christ. As such, just as there is no salvation apart from Christ, there is no salvation outside the intervention of the Church.

Mary and the saints are not deities. They are creatures divinized by grace. It is true that the Mormon view of God and the Trinity tends to be polytheistic; however, there has been a movement on the part of many of its adherents in recent years to a more orthodox monotheism. Catholicism believes in a communion of the saints but this speaks to our profound union with the Lord. Your failure to appreciate this shows a defective ecclesiology and eschatology.

Catholicism defines God as a Trinity: three divine Persons but one divine Nature.

Jesus said that the Kingdom of God is within people, and NOT found in an outward institution with Inquisitions, Borgia popes, warring papal states, and the modern child molestation scandal, all based upon the “superiority” of the clergy to the laity, and condoned by the “higher up” bishops.

FATHER JOE:

No, any exclusive “kingdom within” business is a modern sophistry that violates the witness of Christ and that of his disciples. The parables dealt not with a hidden or private kingdom but one that would be made manifest first through the person of Christ and then through his mystical body, the Church. The kingdom of God is breaking into the world through the Church. It is not yet fully realized and the kingdom will only come in God’s own good time.

You make too much of inquisitions, bad popes, misbehaving priests and clericalism. Our Lord called sinners not the righteous. Both the laity and the clergy are weak and sinful human beings. However, we know that by God’s grace and mercy, even the weakest of instruments can know mercy and render godly service. The Church is holy because Christ is holy. The Church is both a human and a supernatural or divine institution.

You sometimes confuse variable disciplines with immutable doctrines. There is a big difference. Catholics and the Church still signify a great sign of contradiction to the world. We testify to the truth both in and out of season. We speak for the voiceless, the oppressed, the poor, and the marginalized. You speak only for yourself, and not a saving word, but one which impugns the work of God and the wonder of his holy Church.

I gladly look forward to the Day of Judgment as one whose faith in Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord is based upon the Word of God and not upon the “traditions of men” taught by the Catholic Church. I am not “invincibly ignorant” nor am I one of the “separated brethren” of the apostate Catholic Church under its Antichrist pope. The Catholic Church will be judged as with other false world religions on the basis of how it rejects the Word of God for the “traditions of men.”

FATHER JOE:

Alas, you will not be the one doing the judging. You will have no redress from the divine tribunal. Jesus is indeed Lord and he sits on the right hand of the Father to judge the living and the dead. Since you acknowledge that you are not “invincibly ignorant,” I must quote to you John 9:35-41:

“When Jesus heard that they had thrown him out, he found him and said, ‘Do you believe in the Son of Man?’ He answered and said, ‘Who is he, sir, that I may believe in him?’ Jesus said to him, ‘You have seen him and the one speaking with you is he.’ He said, ‘I do believe, Lord,’ and he worshiped him. Then Jesus said, ‘I came into this world for judgment, so that those who do not see might see, and those who do see might become blind.’ Some of the Pharisees who were with him heard this and said to him, ‘Surely we are not also blind, are we?’ Jesus said to them, ‘If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you are saying, WE SEE, so your sin remains.’”

While salvation truth is found in Sacred Scripture, God’s Word emerged from the oral proclamation, early writings and other elements in the Sacred Tradition of the Church. As such the writings of the Church fathers and our traditions also have value. The witness of the apostolic community and the Church fathers was formative for the faith and will always have value regarding the truth and our sense of identity. The practices of prayer and the stories of the martyrs and saints are also elements of our inheritance. You would have us throw away the backdrop that helps us to understand God’s Word and to know what it means to be a believer in the Church. Such an attitude is incredibly foolish and dishonest.

Lutherans must also deal with their traditions of ritual and the legacy of history. The writings of Luther and other reformers have a special place in the heart of Protestantism. Would you throw all that away? You have the Bible but would you neglect the Book of Concord and Luther’s sermons? No, of course not and yet you would have Catholics repudiate the riches of their history and tradition. You are wrong in so many ways that there is no making it right. The Catholic Church is Christ’s body. He is the wine and we are the branches. Opposition to the Church would make those who hold opinions like yours into the real anti-Christs.

Like the cults, the Catholic Church cannot exist by Scripture alone; it must have “progressive revelation” in the form of “Sacred Tradition” and the “Magisterium of the Church” so that the Church’s teachings and practices can be changed over time. 1 Tim. 4:1-3 prophesies that false teachers will arise who will impose manmade laws against marriage and about dietary restrictions, and the Catholic Church has fulfilled that prophecy to the letter.

FATHER JOE:

Poor man, jumping from confession to confession, making yourself the arbiter of all that is good and true, you might settle in one synod for now but your true loyalty is to yourself. You really have become a cult of one. Like other Catholic haters, you cast the label of “cult” upon others while it is the stamp upon which you have defined yourself. There can be no real discussion with you because you will take no one’s word about things other than your own. You would even presume to teach about the so-called “real” Catholic Church to a priest who both knows her and has dedicated his life to her. You really are too much! Like so many anti-Catholics, you try to overwhelm targeted victims with a barrage of half-truths that would make most average Catholics throw up their hands and give up. Of course, such cheap tactics represent no genuine victory and I am no “average” Catholic.

You really do not listen and seem to be debating yourself. For instance, here you make a reference to “progressive revelation” even though I taught that public revelation ended with the death of the last apostle. The development of doctrine has to do with continuing reflection upon the deposit of faith. That is something entirely different. Settled doctrine cannot be reversed. What is objectively true remains true and is not open to negation.

As for Sacred Tradition, it is one of the two sources of divine revelation. Without Sacred Tradition there would be no Bible and no Church. Sacred Tradition is perpetuated in the life and preaching of the Church. The stories of the saints and every effort to hand on the faith become a part of that living tradition. The writings of the early Church fathers and the efforts of the Magisterium are expressions of a dynamic and living Church. You would brush all this aside. You would strip the Church naked of her inheritance.

As for the Magisterium, the Pope and the bishops in union with him cannot manufacture dogma. Rather, they are limited to interpretation and the application of our faith and morals to new questions. The Pope is not God.

The Pope cannot change revealed objective truth and he does not claim to have the authority to do so. The Bible is God’s inspired Word. The Church is one, holy, catholic and apostolic. Jesus sends the Holy Spirit upon the Church. There are seven sacraments. God is a Trinity. Jesus is the God-man and Savior. The Mass is a sacrifice and the Eucharist is Christ’s real presence. All these are immutable truths, and no man, not even the Pope, can change them. Dissenters become upset about such matters, especially when it comes to moral issues like abortion and homosexuality. The Pope cannot refashion immorality into a moral right. Lacking a teaching office, Protestant churches often fracture, and indeed, your defection from one synod to another is evidence that such continues even in your own experience.

You are the false teacher.

1 Timothy 4:1-5 – Now the Spirit explicitly says that in the last times some will turn away from the faith by paying attention to deceitful spirits and demonic instructions through the hypocrisy of liars with branded consciences. They forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected when received with thanksgiving, for it is made holy by the invocation of God in prayer.

The original concern in 1 Timothy was a false asceticism. There were heretical groups which derided matter and rejected the creative love of spouses in marriage. The Church celebrates the wonder of marital love and sees it as a sacred covenant between spouses and God.

Celibate love is the model given to us by Jesus and St. Paul. Catholic priests freely embrace such a single-hearted love for the kingdom. A priest or religious does not embrace celibacy because sex and marriage are bad. Rather, he or she wants to live and love in a special celibate way.

Our Lord tells us in the Gospel of Matthew that God hates divorce and that a man and woman are supposed to keep their promises until “death do they part.” The Catholic Church retains this truth when many Protestant denominations tolerate divorce and remove any censures attached to it, even for ministers and bishops.

Today, the real offenders against the marriage bed are to be found in No-Fault Divorce, Divorce and Remarriage, Fornication, Co-habitation, Adultery, Same-Sex Unions, Pornography, Immodesty, Contraception, Abortion and Infanticide. Note that on all these issues, the Catholic Church takes serious heat for hard uncompromising positions.

As for dietary restrictions, the penitential practices of Catholicism today are easy to fulfill. Catholics are asked to treat Ash Wednesday and Good Friday as days of fast and abstinence. All Fridays of Lent are days of abstinence from meat. That is about it. We are bodily creatures, not angels or ghosts. The posture and the disciplines of the body are inducements and/or aids in Christian discipleship, prayer and worship.

When it comes to foods and penance, we recognize that the bounty God gives us is good. However, we sometimes seek to wean ourselves from the gifts to better focus upon the Giver. We are not like the Jews of old or the Muslims worried about clean and unclean foods. (This is not to condemn our Jewish and Muslim friends, only to assert that Christianity views all food as licit and clean.)

The Church is a sign of contradiction in a world that has forgotten God. You are the false teacher in all this. If the Scripture is warning us about such wolves then I would beseech you to look at yourself more closely. Your wild charges and deviation from the truth are not from God. If I were you, I would be very concerned about the state of my soul and standing before the Lord. I am a servant of Christ and of his Church. I am not my own man. I have given up my life to the Lord’s service. I go where I am sent. I do what needs to be done. I place the Gospel before any pet ideas of my own. Every day I ask the Lord to grant me a greater share in humility and help me to love as he loved us from the Cross. I know my response to you has been long and sometimes harsh. Yes, you have upset me. You also worry me. You might never be a Catholic. But I am fearful for your soul. I am trying, yes even when you insult me, to love you.

True Lutherans do not base their faith upon Luther or his teachings. He was an errant man, just like all of the popes and Church Fathers and members of the church councils. As with all of them, Luther is judged by the standard of Scripture, as the Berean Christians judged the teachings of Paul and Silas in Acts 17:11.

FATHER JOE:

We are all sinners, although the Holy Spirit specially safeguards the Church, particularly in council and when popes exercise their universal teaching office regarding faith and morals. But much of the time we know their ordinary practical visible leadership and our religious assent.

Luther was a genius but he also made some serious missteps. Some of these were corrected by Lutherans that followed him. He opted for the edited and smaller Hebrew canon of the Old Testament but he also subtracted Hebrews, James, Jude and Revelation from the New Testament. Later Protestants rightly restored the integrity of the New Testament.

Where Luther was in agreement with Scripture, fine; where he wasn’t, he was wrong!

FATHER JOE: Okay, I am tired of fighting the Morlocks, um I mean Malach. Time to come back up to the light. Peace!
Warren Malach, on April 3, 2013 at 10:31 am said:

Thank you for pointing out in your responses to my post that Catholicism is a different religion from Scriptural Christianity and has all the hallmarks of an antichristian cult like Mormonism.

FATHER JOE:

Dear Rev. Malach, as a retired Lutheran minister in Washington state, you should be ashamed of yourself for your condescension and how you attack Catholic Christianity. I was fortunate enough to have several fine Lutheran ministers teach me as a seminarian and I will be forever grateful to them. While there were religious differences, we saw each other as fellow believers who had faith in Christ and we exhibited a mutual respect for our “churches.” Indeed, I had one class I really enjoyed that featured a Dominican priest and a Lutheran professor from their seminary in Gettysburg. It was a comparison of the theologies of Karl Barth and Thomas Aquinas. It was a lot of work but to this very day, Thomas’ Summa Theologica and Barth’s Church Dogmatics sit side by side on my book shelf. There was a lot of dissent in those days, and I recall a Lutheran classmate (also studying for ministry) sharing a beer with me at the local tavern. Although from different faith confessions, we were both very conservative and noted “surprisingly” that we had more in common faith-wise with each other than with many of our more progressive co-religionists in school.

The fact that you would compare what Lutherans regard as a “mainline” tradition with Mormonism is surprising. You sound more like a fundamentalist than a Lutheran. Catholicism is historic Christianity. Lutheran bodies generally appreciate this and my friend, the late Fr. Eno, assisted with the joint Lutheran-Catholic document on justification. It brought an end to a major point of divergence. Essentially it clarified language apart from any angry rhetoric.

…in fact, it is the first antichristian cult, prophesied in Scripture. There is nothing in common between Catholicism and Scriptural Christianity.

FATHER JOE: Catholicism is the Mother Church. She is the source of the Christian bible. Every element of the Mass, not just the readings, can be connected to Scripture. We encounter the Lord through the proclaimed Word of God. Catholicism is Christianity 101.

It would be a sin for a Scriptural Christian to pray with a Catholic, because the Catholic would be praying to a “god” other than the God of Scripture.

FATHER JOE: I have to wonder if maybe you are not well. If such were the case then I would just delete your comments and pray that you do not further humiliate yourself online. Catholics love the one true God. He sent his Son into the world to redeem us and to offer us the gift of salvation and eternal life. Jesus suffered and died so that sinners might be forgiven. Jesus is the revelation of the Father. He sends his Holy Spirit upon the Church, inspiring God’s Word, functioning as the soul of the Church, preserving the truth in the appointed teachers, enlightening believers, fostering unity, and giving efficacy to the sacraments. This is the God of Scripture and the Catholic Church. I shudder to think that you might worship “something” else.

The “god” of Catholicism is like the Mormon “god” in that it has to add to Scripture because Christ was not its final revelation confirmed in Scripture, as taught in Hebrews 1.

FATHER JOE: I know there is concern about Mormon polytheism. However, it is also my understanding that there is an evolution in their sect that is moving them ever closer to a Christianity embraced by Catholics, Lutherans, Episcopalians, Methodists and others. Your attack upon the Catholic appreciation of God would also target these churches. Lutherans are biblical but in the last four hundred years have developed their own traditions. All these churches have at least certain sacraments and all have rituals. Methodists have a rich theology in their hymn book. Living churches grow and develop. This does not damage their relationship with the truths of the Bible. All of us view Jesus as Savior and Lord.
Warren Malach, on March 30, 2013 at 7:27 pm said:

By the grace of God, Catholics can be saved when they turn to Christ Alone, but under the Antichrist pope they are have been led astray and endanger their souls.

FATHER JOE: What synod of Lutheranism is it to which you belong? It is surely not the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America given that Catholic scholars have pursued dialogue and even signed an agreement on Justification. My suspicion is that you belong to the Missouri Synod or something similar, although if memory serves me, the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod also holds that “the Pope is the very Antichrist.” The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod takes this historical slur from Martin Luther very seriously. While associating the office of the papacy with the anti-Christ, they “observe the distinction which the Lutheran Confessors made between the office of the pope (papacy) and the individual men who fill that office. The latter could be Christians themselves. We do not presume to judge any person’s heart. Also, we acknowledge the possibility that the historical form of the Antichrist could change. Of course, in that case another identified by these marks would rise” (LCMS – Frequently Asked Questions, by the LCMS Church Information Center). However, while there is a hesitation to damn any particular person, such a judgment upon the Church’s chief teaching office also imperils the souls of the accusers. They take upon themselves a pseudo-teaching authority and make the Book of Concord into a confession or standard of faith. The fact that human interpretations are open to further fracturing is evidenced in the continuing schisms within Lutheranism. Just as the Catholic Church has its universal catechism, Lutherans certainly have a right to their own formulations. However, we can do so without attacking others. I would not equate men and women in the Protestant churches who love Jesus with the anti-Christ.

Dismiss me as you like as a “Catholic hater,” but the Word of God judges you and you will have to answer to God on the Day of Judgment for your anthropocentric religion,

FATHER JOE: The problem is that you really do seem to be a “Catholic hater.” I would remind you that we will all be judged by God. Men might sometimes in their ignorance confuse or get doctrines wrong, but the real measure in terms of salvation is faith lived out in charity. Catholicism is not a religion centered upon the human but upon the person of Jesus Christ who is God made man. All the prayers of the Mass are addressed to our heavenly Father and are offered through the Son and In the Holy Spirit. The focus is not social justice or fellowship but praise and thanks to almighty God. The fight we are having with the presidential administration is over the fact that the Church will not be defined by the narrow earth-bound terms of secular humanism.

…which worships dead human beings,

FATHER JOE: Do you not believe in the resurrection? All who believe and abide in Christ can know eternal life in him. Love is stronger than the grave. We do not worship the saints but we do acknowledge them as members of the Church who can pray with and for us. We have both a personal and corporate faith in Christ. We are one body in the Lord. All prayer, even intercessory prayer, has as its proper object, almighty God. We do not give divine worship to creatures.

…makes salvation based upon human works,

FATHER JOE: The Bible does not teach that we are saved by faith alone. Rather, we are saved by grace alone. Further, faith is more than a profession on our lips but is realized by our discipleship. We cannot save ourselves. And you are wrong to imply that such is the Catholic view. Works in themselves can save no one. However, the works of Christ indeed have merit. Christ died on the Cross to redeem us. He is alive in us by grace. We are restored to the likeness of the Lord. Whatever he does in us has value.

…and is led not by Christ but by a man who can and does change Catholic doctrine and practice such that the Catholic Church today is like a liberal mainstream Protestant denomination for whom the Christian Faith can be changed by man as with amendments to the US Constitution.

FATHER JOE: The Pope is the servant of the Gospel, not its master. Doctrine can develop but the deposit of faith is fixed with the death of the last apostle. The Pope can define and interpret; however, he cannot revoke or dismiss Catholic teaching. This is why there is tension over the issue of a male-only priesthood and so many of the moral issues of our day. Not even the Pope can change immutable dogma. I am unsure why you would think he can or has done so.

“The faith once delivered to the saints” (Jude 3) is NOT the Catholic Church, but is found ONLY in the Word of God which the Catholic Church long ago rejected as insufficient.

FATHER JOE: You judge Catholicism by a standard that Lutheranism does not judge itself. If this were the case then you would not need the writings of Martin Luther (I have all 60 volumes) or the Book of Concord. The ancient faith and the Scriptures are still alive and well in the Catholic Church. It is time to put away the old polemics and to look at areas of division with sober and honest intellectual inquiry.
Warren Malach, on December 28, 2012 at 3:57 am said:

Catholicism is an anti-Christian cult because: (1) It bases its doctrine and practice on a mixture of Scripture and the “traditions of men” condemned in Scripture, just as do Mormons and other cults.

FATHER JOE: Catholicism is the original historical and most genuine form of Christianity. She is faithful to the two fonts of revelation: Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. The Catholic Church is the Mother of the Bible. She was proclaiming the Gospel even before there were written Gospels or an accepted New Testament canon of books. Important salvific elements of the living oral tradition were put to writing. These form the Scriptures and the writings of the early Church fathers. The Church of Latter Day Saints (Mormons) is of human origin while the Catholic Church was instituted by Christ. Jesus Christ is a divine person with a human nature. Your fundamentalist religion was established by men; indeed, you may have made yourself into your own church.

(2) It teaches another way of salvation than that of salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ (Eph. 2:8-9,) namely, salvation by grace plus good works, just as do other cults.

FATHER JOE: Your assertion is not only false but bigoted. It is you who are wrong in teaching that we are saved “by faith alone.” Rather, the Catholic Church teaches that we are saved “by grace alone.” Saving faith is more than an acclamation in words but a response in discipleship of the whole person. When we weigh St. Paul’s writings with those of St. James, this becomes incredibly clear. Catholicism has never taught that we can save ourselves through works. Works only have merit if they are expressions of Christ’s life and mission in us. It is for this reason that a person in mortal sin cannot benefit from virtuous acts until he or she seeks and receives the forgiveness of Christ. Notice that your citation omits the following verse, verse 10. Here is St. Paul’s unedited statement: “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so no one may boast. For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them.” See also James 2:17: “So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.” St. James could be speaking to you when he writes, “Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?” (James 2:20). Again, if there is a cult here, it is yours.

(3) It exalts its leader the pope to a position of semi-divine authority with the doctrine of infallibility, just as with the Mormons making their First President into a “prophet, seer, and revelator.”

FATHER JOE: It was Jesus who made St. Peter the visible head of the apostles and the Church. This ROCK endures, by Christ’s command, until the end of days. The Pope is not a deity and his gift of infallibility is given to safeguard the unity of the Church and the Good News of Christ. The Bible cannot interpret itself; the fracturing of Protestant Christianity is proof of this. The Pope interprets and teaches the deposit of faith but is not a seer or revelator. All public revelation, the Catholic Church teaches, ends with the death of the last apostle, St. John. As for being a prophet, such is an element given to all Christians in our Lord’s great commission to his followers.

(4) It is guilty of idolatry and polytheism in its saint-worship and divination of Mary, rendering even its Sacrament of Baptism doubtful because Catholic practice promotes prayer NOT to the Triune God only, but to dead Christians, a form a necromancy condemned in Scripture.

FATHER JOE: Your outright prejudice and misrepresentation against Catholic Christianity at this point completes your blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. While the Church venerates Mary as the blessed creature who is honored to be the Mother of Christ (our Redeemer, Lord, and God); the Church does not regard her as divine. There is no polytheism. We love her because Jesus loved her and gave her to the Church through our emissary St. John at the Cross. The critique against Baptism is indeed bizarre since Catholicism insists upon the Trinitarian formula given at the close of the Gospel of Matthew. We ask the saints, the family of God, to pray with and for us. This sign of fellowship with the communion of the saints is an expression of the unity of the Church. The earthly Church in pilgrimage is one with the Church in heaven. We do not seek forbidden or condemned discourse with the dead as through séances or the occult.

True, Scriptural Christianity has always existed when people heard the Word of God and believed it, rather than “the traditions of men” such as those promoted by the Catholic Church.

FATHER JOE: Actually this applies to YOU and not the Catholic Church. Your bigotry represents a late human tradition of privatized religion based upon lies and ignorance. You adopt the bible translations of others with little real understanding of Scripture and twist it to your own liking. You attack what you do not understand and treat the Bible, usually the KJV, as if it fell out of the sky just for you. The New Testament was written by Catholics under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. That same Holy Spirit would guide the Church in the selection of a biblical canon and in its interpretation (through the Magisterium established by Christ).

Even Catholics can be saved through the reading/hearing of the Word of God when they dismiss all their good works and cling only to Christ as their Lord and Savior. But the Catholic Church itself is completely apostate.

FATHER JOE: One would have to reject the true God to be an apostate. Such the Catholic Church will never do. Not knowing your view of Jesus, I can only say that your views are heretical to true Christian faith. We can know salvation in Christ through encountering him in his Church: through the Word proclaimed, in his sacraments, and in the Mystical Body, itself. Jesus is our Redeemer and Mediator. Catholicism teaches that Jesus is the Way and the Truth and the Life. There is no way to the Father except through him. You are very wrong to attack the faith of Catholics. You will have to answer to Christ for it. While you might have religious differences, I would urge you to change your polemics against Catholicism.
Jenny, on July 30, 2012 at 9:57 pm said:

It is my understanding that Catholics do not pray “TO” any person alive or passed. We simply “HAIL” or “CALL” on them to pray or intercede for us &/or others. In the same way most religions ask friends & neighbors to pray for assistance. We only pray “TO” The Lord our God. We request prayer from not only Mary & the saints but, from our clergy, congregation, co-workers, neighbors & friends. As a Cradle Catholic this has always been a simple concept to me.

FATHER JOE: Yes, prayers to saints are intercessory as the proper object of all Christian prayer is Almighty God.
Anita Moore O.P. (laity), on August 10, 2011 at 7:08 pm said:

JAMIE LEE:

Many of the ‘rituals’ and ‘beliefs’ and ’symbols’ of Catholicism were stolen from the pagans when the Church went out and conquered their lands, forcing them to build Catholic churches on the sites of their pagan temples. Thus the Catholic church received many things from the pagans they slaughtered and conquered in the name of God.

So we went out and slaughtered all these pagans because of their beliefs and symbols, and then stole their beliefs and symbols?

It is possible to see faint glimmers of Christian truth in the old pagan religions, because a truth as cataclysmic as the Incarnation, Death and Resurrection of Christ must necessarily be reflected in everything, at all times. But post hoc does not mean propter hoc. It is absurd to talk of the early Christians (all Catholics) appropriating beliefs and symbols from paganism, which they loathed and despised as the worship of demons.
Harry, on August 9, 2011 at 10:44 pm said:

It is very obvious that Jamie only believes what he wants. If he looks back at early history he will find the Mass the same then as it is today.
eccosubito, on August 9, 2011 at 8:02 pm said:

Well I am breathless after reading all that. I cannot understand such anger. People like that should get out more often and get some fresh air.
David, on August 8, 2011 at 6:11 pm said:

Give it to them straight, Fr. Joe. God bless you and keep you!