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The following is a debate on the matter of true religion and the cult. While the charge is leveled against Catholicism, it actually sticks against Nicholas who represents a radical variation of SDA belief. Nicholas operates the anti-Catholic PRESENTS OF GOD website.

Nicholas writes:

Let us start with definitions from The American Heritage Dictionary, © 1985 by Columbia University Press:

Cult: —n. 1. A system or community of religious worship and ritual. 2. a. A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or bogus. b. Followers of such a religion or sect. 3. a. Obsessive devotion or veneration for a person, principle, or ideal, esp. when regarded as a fad. b. The object of such devotion. 4. An exclusive group of persons sharing an esoteric interest. —Modifier: a cult figure.

Bogus: —adj. Counterfeit; fake.

To call a Church and or a collection of Churches a cult, the burden of proof would have to be upon the one proclaiming such a bold statement. For a church to be a cult, I would have prove that they are teaching “counterfeit” doctrines not found in the Word of God, therefore making themselves “2. a. A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or bogus.” A Christian church that does not do as the Word of God requires is easy evidence of being a cult to anyone with even a basic knowledge of God’s Word. All one needs to do is share what the “cult” teaches with what the Bible (which CATHOLICS CLAIM as their book) teaches. And the truth will come out as easily as Isaiah proclaimed…

Isaiah 8:20: “To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.”

Catholic response:

Okay, the first definition would apply to any “cultus” or ritual. The second definition would apply to Nicholas’ religion of hate, even if it is a religion of ONE. The third would apply more to fans of Elvis Presley than to members of the Church. The fourth definition is in regards to aficionados of Science Fiction and other such things. If there is anything bogus here, it is the religion Nicholas and others of his mindset have manufactured.

An honest individual would be hard-pressed to call any religious movement a cult unless his appreciation is shared and confirmed by others in an intelligent and cautious manner. Nicholas exudes neither of these characteristics. Indeed, cults have traditionally been minority movements, suffering from syncretism and often preoccupied with eminent judgment. Having said this, there are no easy classifications. For example, is a cult still a cult when it balloons in size like the Church of Latter Day Saints? Traditionally Catholicism has considered the following to be cults: Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, Pentecostals, Seventh Day Adventists, the Unification Church, and even the YMCA and the Salvation Army (although these last two organizations have toned down their religious peculiarities). Since Nicholas shares so many of the teachings of the Seventh Day Adventists, but not all, he would also fit into this category. While an atheist might think we are ALL nuts; the verdict from traditional Christianity is that these are man-made and deceptive spiritual movements.

Nicholas writes:

Billions of people realize that MANY doctrines seen in today’s churches have indeed been FIRST invented in the Roman Catholic Church many years prior. But what are we to say about these doctrines? Are they Biblical? Are they found in God’s Word? I would like to transfer the burden of proof now to all those reading this post. I have “…searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so” (Acts 17:11) and I must be honest with you. I have NOT found Biblical evidence for the doctrines found in the Roman Catholic Church. MANY of these doctrines can be found practiced in other churches as well. Making it easily seen as fact that the Roman Catholic Church is THEIR “Mother” and they are her “daughters,” they do as she would ask them to do. I dare YOU to give me the Scriptural facts that proclaim the inventions of the Roman Catholic Church as Biblical doctrines spoken by God in His Word. If you cannot, you must admit that you are following that which was formed by the Antichrist. Show me the verses that proclaim the Roman Catholic doctrines / rituals as Biblical!

Colossians 2:8: “Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.”

Catholic response:

Nicholas gives us a text that precisely could only emerge from a cult leader or stratagem:

1. He opposes mainline religion, in this case Catholic Christianity.
2. He becomes the singular interpreter of Scripture and the arbiter of religious truth.
3. He feigns honesty and may actually believe something of his deception.
4. He posits another institution as utterly evil, in this case Catholicism.
5. He castigates the opposition as formed by the antichrist and thus under judgment.
6. He implores (here implicitly) that listeners leave the Church and join him.

The only thing missing is the poisoned punch or a comet to die by. He offers no proof for his claims, but always has a random Scripture verse handy.

He seems to forget that Catholicism is NOT a “sola scriptura” Church. Catholics can find many supportive verses, but they do not live by the Bible alone. His argument has more appeal for Protestants and lazy Catholics than a Catholic who truly knows his faith. I suspect that Nicholas is hoping to catch the dumb fish; intelligent believers might run home to Rome after a taste of his poison– thank God!

Nicholas writes:

Here is my list of bogus Catholic doctrines and rituals:

SACERDOTAL MASS, PRAYERS FOR THE DEAD, THE SIGN OF THE CROSS, WAX CANDLES, VENERATION OF ANGELS AND DEAD SAINTS, DAILY MASS, EXULTATION OF MARY AS MOTHER OF GOD, PRIESTS WEARING SPECIAL CLOTHING, PURGATORY, LATIN LANGUAGE USED IN WORSHIP, PRAYER OFFERED TO MARY, DEAD SAINTS, AND ANGELS, THE OFFICE OF POPE, KISSING OF THE POPE’S FEET, KISSING OF THE POPE’S RING, TEMPORAL POWER OF POPES, POPE = GOD ON EARTH, PONTIFEX MAXIMUS, POPE HOLDS KEYS TO HEAVEN AND EARTH, POPE CARRIED ON PORTABLE THRONE, VENERATION OF CROSSES, STATUES, IMAGES AND RELICS, HOLY WATER, USE OF SALT IN HOLY WATER, CHRISM, PRIEST’S BLESSINGS, BAPTISM OF BELLS, INFANT BAPTISM, CANONIZATION OF DEAD SAINTS, FASTING ON FRIDAYS DURING LENT, CELEBRATION OF EASTER, CELEBRATION OF GOOD FRIDAY, CELEBRATION OF CHRISTMAS, DAILY SACRIFICE OF THE MASS, THE ROSARY, THE INQUISITION INSTITUTED BY THE COUNCIL OF VERONA IN 1184 AD, SALE OF INDULGENCES, SEVEN SACRAMENTS, TRANSUBSTANTIATION, AURICULAR CONFESION (CONFESSING TO A PRIEST), ADORATION OF A WAFER (COMMUNION), THE SCAPULAR, THE BIBLE FORBIDDEN TO LAYMEN IN 1129 AD BY COUNCIL OF VALENCIA, TRADITION PLACED ON SAME GROUND AS SCRIPTURE, THE APOCRYPHA, IMMACULATE CONCEPTION OF MARY (WITHOUT SIN), INFALLIBILTY OF POPE IN MATTERS OF FAITH AND MORALS, ASSUMPTION OF MARY, MARY AS QUEEN OF HEAVEN, MARY AS CO-REDEEMER, MARY AS MOTHER OF THE CHURCH, IMAGE WORSHIP INSTITUTED BY COUNCIL OF NICEA IN 787 AD, TORTURE AND KILLING OF OVER 100 MILLION CHRISTIANS, THE PERPETUAL VIRGINITY OF MARY, POPE JOHN PAUL STATES EVOLUTION = FACT, CHURCH SANCTIONED BINGO AND GAMBLING, LOYALTY TO CHURCH NECESSARY FOR SALVATION, CHANGE OF SUNDAY AS SABBATH INSTEAD OF SATURDAY, CHURCH AND STATE COMBINED, ENFORCEMENT OF CHURCH DOCTRINES UPON GENERAL PUBLIC, THE NATIVITY OF JESUS DECEMBER 25TH, THE NATIVITY OF ST. JOHN JUNE 24TH, HOT CROSS BUNS, 40 DAYS OF LENT, DEAD VISITING LIVING ON ALL SOULS DAY, BURNING INCENSE, CHANTS, THE CRUCIFIX, WEARING OF RELIGIOUS IMAGES, MYSTICISM, PENANCE, INDULGENCES, AND SALVATION BY WORKS, NUNS, CONVENTS, etc.

Catholic response:

Without explaining how certain practices must be signs of a cult, he gives a long list and demands Scriptural verification. In other words, he has gutted Christianity of its beauty and truth and now he wants accolades for his perverse surgery. Nicholas is a smooth operator. What he does here is a cover-up for his inability to debate or dialogue regarding the points of opposition. He mentions such a multitude of topics that it leaves the reader speechless. Who has time to write upon each of these matters? Unable to respond adequately in short order, Nicholas translates silence or quick web posts as a victory for him. Many of these subjects were addressed on his now defunct message board; however, he immediately deleted or ridiculed answers without ever addressing the concerns of others. Habitually, he would not even amend factual mistakes. Sometimes he would become quite irate when a Catholic answered from tradition and the catechism; it was outside the parameters within which he wanted an answer. He wants everything on his terms— however; to fully ascribe to his reductionism is already to capitulate upon an adequate response— upon the genuine truth. Smart discussion gives Nicholas a headache. When cornered on the message boards of others, he would sometimes retreat behind an anti-intellectual attitude, slamming those who used words longer than four letters or who presented arguments with which he could not deal.

Nicholas writes:

The Roman Catholic Church has indeed invented numerous “doctrines” that cannot be verified in the slightest sense with Scriptures. Sure there is a couple that if one was to twist Scriptures could “appear” to be of God. But when the full context of the Scriptures are given, even a “babe in Christ” can see the truth before their eyes for it is written that “you cannot deceive the very elect” (See Matthew 24:24) If you are not in the Catholic Church but your church embraces any or all of the list of inventions mentioned then your church is seen as a daughter of the “Mother.”

Catholic response:

Ah, here Nicholas condemns almost every Christian on the planet. All the mainline traditions can claim Catholicism as the Mother Church. The two hundred million plus Orthodox believers of the East with their priests and sacraments can be included in this colossal spurning of Christianity as it has come down to us in history. This leaves Nicholas with few allies; and if he is wrong, which he is, even the good Lord is not on his side.

Nicholas talks about how others twist bible verses and yet here this is precisely what he does. The elect of God do indeed see the truth. Yes, it is in the Bible; however, the Living Church also proclaims it. Nicholas violates his very contention. If the Bible alone sufficed, then we would not need his explanatory notes. However, he has to add his own spin to the texts so that they will reach their desired end. Catholicism uses Scripture in a contextual way– explaining the meaning and elaborating upon the development of biblical themes through theological reflection. Nicholas forces the Bible to support his given subject matter. He is guilty of the very crime about which he laments.

Nicholas writes:

Revelation 17:5: “And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.”

Catholic response:

I explained in a post which Nicholas deleted how this harlot and abomination was the Rome of the ancient pagans, not the Rome of Christianity and the Catholic Church.

Nicholas writes:

Understand if you cannot explain the above doctrines being embraced in your Church with your Bible then you must admit that this verse speaks unto you this day.

Catholic response:

I have tried to explain, but Nicholas deleted my posts, sometimes (at his own admission) without reading them. This illustrates his intellectual dishonesty and deep-seated hypocrisy.

Nicholas writes:

1 Timothy 4:1: “Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils….”

Catholic response:

We see something of this in the return of paganism and in various New Age movements. We also see something of this betrayal of the Christian faith in people like Nicholas who seek to remake the Gospel in their own image.

Nicholas writes:

If you choose to ignore the simple truth it is only because you have embraced the lie for so long that you have become deaf to the Holy Spirit as did Ephraim…

Hosea 4:17: “Ephraim is joined to idols: let him alone.”

The Lord saw that Ephraim continued to ignore the truth he was sharing with him. Therefore the Lord LEFT Ephraim alone. Now that the Holy Spirit has left, the lie of Satan will be so embraced that it will appear as truth to even those that would say “Lord, Lord.”

Catholic response:

The Lord has promised to remain with us until the end of the age. Yours is the reinterpretation and novelty. In some ways yours is more an Old Testament religion than one that reflects the new dispensation of Christ.

Nicholas writes:

Matthew 7:22: “Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?”

They thought they were Christians. They appeared as Christians to many. They did many wonderful works in His name as does the Roman Catholic Church and many other Churches embracing her “doctrines of devils.” But what was it Jesus said about that day when the whole world thought they were Christians?

Matthew 7:23: And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Catholic response:

Be prepared Nicholas, these could be the very words that you will hear from our Lord’s lips. You carelessly blaspheme against the works of the Holy Spirit in his Church, making faith possible and giving efficacy to the sacraments. It is Nicholas that has called Catholic teaching the “doctrines of devils.” If it is indeed the truth of Jesus then you have cast yourself in the role of the disbelievers who sought to trick Jesus in his speech and who dismissed his words and works as that of a demon. Making no distinction about those things upon which you might concur with Christians, you seem to reject the entire Good News preached by Christ’s Church.

Nicholas writes:

Are you sure the Church you embrace is seen by the Lord thy God as His Church?

Catholic response:

This is my question to YOU.

Nicholas writes:

Or does the list I have given of “invented lies of Satan” open your eyes and make your heart pound within your chest in fear? The Holy Spirit will not continue to warn you day in and day out my friend. Sooner or later, like Ephraim, you will have heard His voice for the last time….

Catholic response:

Sorry, none of this happens. Some of the things on your list are not even part of the deposit of faith. Other subjects are misunderstood by you and your few associates. I have tried to respond on individual matters, but you go in a rage and then delete the posts.

Nicholas writes:

2 Thessalonians 2:10-12: “And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”

Catholic response:

Is this what has happened to you? Is this why you will not even correct black-and-white factual matters? Is this why you show such animosity toward Catholicism? Dear God in heaven, it causes me to shudder to imagine that such might be the cloud that surrounds your heart and mind.

Nicholas writes:

And when you ignore Him, you will be open to the strong delusion that has drawn you away in the first place. It will appear as “of Him” when in fact is it of Satan. Keep in mind; if you CANNOT verify what your Priests, Pastors, or Preachers proclaim from the Word of God, then it is NOT of God. It is actually that simple….

Catholic response:

And so you stand absolutely alone? No, our Lord established a Church to preserve us in the one true faith of Christ. Protestantism and cults have fractured themselves into thousands of communities— each believing different things— each claiming to possess the truth. Personal interpretation that ignores the working of the Holy Spirit among the shepherds appointed by Christ can only lead to a further corruption of the Gospel. We do not stand alone. Yes, we have the Scriptures, as understood within a horizon of tradition in a living and teaching Church. Would you utterly reject the holiness and learning of those who have dedicated themselves to the Gospel of Christ? Would you dismiss as irrelevant the charism of truth given the teachers of faith in the Catholic Church? Alas, I guess you would— and so you trust no one (as you have said before)— I suspect you can join no church because you have made yourself a church of one.

Nicholas writes:

Isaiah 8:20: “To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.”

Catholic response:

Ah, Isaiah is talking about the word from God that he is proclaiming as a prophet of the Most High. The New Israel also has prophets of the living Word, Jesus Christ. These evangelizers find a singular focus in the ministers of the Catholic Church.

Nicholas writes:

Truth is truth!

Catholic response:

You would best sign off your posts with “Deceit is deceit!”

Filed under: Apologetics, Catholic, Church |