DEFENDING THE CATHOLIC FAITH

55 Responses

Pat, on March 20, 2013 at 12:55 am said:

Sandra, why do you waste your time consorting with this sorcerer of Satan? He twists the truth at every turn and he is using your comments to further his lies. He is not saved and he would steal eternal life from others with his false Christ and counterfeit Christianity. He is playing with you because his is the father of lies. The more you fan the fire the more damage he can do. I would let this sleeping dog lie. No good will come of it.

FATHER JOE: What is this, pick on Fr. Joe and the Church week? Gosh, get a new Pope and the bigots come out of the woodwork!
Sandra, on March 19, 2013 at 11:44 pm said:

Joe, we are going around in circles. You respond with Catholic teachings which I believe are false, definitely man-made, so I’ll never be convinced that I’m misled by what the Bible tells me. I was baptized into the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, not into a religion.

FATHER JOE: I respond with what I know to be the truths of Christianity as passed down by the Catholic Church. The charge of man-made rests with your version of religion. You have none of the supernatural safeguards promised by Christ. As for your baptism, such is usually into a faith community. What did you do, baptize yourself in the sink or bath tub? Forgive the crudeness, but we do not come to God alone.
Bob, on March 19, 2013 at 7:37 pm said:

Father Joe; its a bright sunny day here but just a little cool to enjoy the outdoors. so I’ve been skimming other posts on your Blog. Since you Sandra and I have been discussing baptism. The Mormons baptize the dead and I believe its a verse out of Corinthians they use to justify this practice. Was this not a pagan practice?

FATHER JOE: I know little about it. But it is not supported by Sacred Scripture or Tradition.
Bob, on March 19, 2013 at 5:34 pm said:

Sandra if I associated you with a violent and intolerant church in Kansas please accept my apology. When I said work together I meant that our faith groups work to assist the poor, sick and dying in our communities and the world. I don’t mean join the Catholic Church, that is your choice, I just want you to understand that our spiritual goals are the same: I try to live a life that Jesus and God want me to live but I fail, maybe I’m just a weak man in spirit or every day life to survive is the proverbial jungle and its kill or be killed if you know what I mean. Father Joe is a man that follows the same path as the Apostles. I on the other hand need the helping hand of the priest hood to intercede on my behalf and teach me about my failing. The Bible as I said before is the word of God, I’ll say that again the Bible is the word of God. I’m not going to quote chapter and verse, but paraphrase as best I can: Stand on the rooftops and proclaim my name. Did he actually mean that we must do this? I don’t think so, but the three of us here are doing just that by our writings on this blog proclaiming Jesus as our savior.

I think regardless of where you read in the bible about baptism there is a difference, Just as there is a difference of some incident or miracle the Apostles in some cases were not there so is was word of mouth. Now as I and it is just I we must try to understand the writers of the time and the translation. These were by our standards today were primitive man. was their word usage that of a well educated person? I thought I had a great vocabulary but in the readings of our mass from the bible I’ve had to come home and look them up in the dictionary. 😦

i
Sandra, on March 18, 2013 at 9:33 pm said:

Another little blurp on baptism from Act 2:38 – Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the foregiveness of your sins: and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” They needed to be aware of what they were doing.

FATHER JOE: This is simply an instance where Peter is speaking to adults. It is a missionary time for the Church. The Church still requires religious formation and personal volition before baptizing anyone after the age of reason. Look at the RCIA and the Church’s initiation of adults.
Sandra, on March 18, 2013 at 2:25 am said:

Now I see a second posting from you, Bob. Whew! So first ones first:

I agree with your belief. I have no cohort here; don’t know who you mean by that. I didn’t state that the Catholic Church is satanic, but I guess saying that it’s influenced by Satan is much the same. I also agree with what you say about working together, but from what I’ve experienced with and learned from Catholics is that by working together, they mean becoming Catholic.

And about the Bible – first of all, thanks for the impression that we can discuss without getting uptight about it. I will tell you the way I see it:

Jerome was a secretary to Pope Damascus for a couple years. He was the originator of the Vulgate, the Latin version of the Bible. While translating the Old Testament he realized the books the Jews regarded as Holy Scripture did not include the Apocrypha. He was compelled by the church to include them but he made it clear that in his opinion the Apocryphal books were only church books to be read for edification, as opposed to the fully inspired canonical books to establish doctrine.

FATHER JOE: St. Jerome spoke about such matters before there was a certain canon. His writings on the canon were not consistent. Indeed, he broke the books into three categories instead of the usual two. There was also confusion in regard to the New Testament books and letters. Some authorities wanted to add the Epistle of Barnabas, the Didache, and Clement’s Epistle to the Corinthians, etc. He cites as inspired the testimony of Wisdom and Ecclesiasticus and calls them “our books.” After the Council of Hippo, he acknowledged the teaching authority of the Church’s Magisterium and accepted the Greek canon over the Hebrew without exception. Such was not coercive but humble acceptance of the Holy Spirit alive in the Church and in the authority given the Church’s shepherds by Christ. His posture here is what is important. Just like today, when the Church resolves disputed questions, we accept the verdict of Christ’s apostolic men, the bishops in union with the Pope. Private interpretation does not trump that of the Church.

I firmly believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God, as He tells us it is. He would not allow for human error to confuse us. Christian translations do not vary from the Truth.

FATHER JOE: Actually there are some poor translations.

Some religions have purposely altered it to different degrees, but God’s Word was written for us to follow with no allowance for adding or taking away from it. In other words, no allowance for humans to alter His Word in any way.

FATHER JOE: The (Catholic) Church is the vehicle that has collected, transmitted, and interpreted the Scriptures.

I do not accept the Catholic Bible. I only accept the original Bible.

FATHER JOE: The original Bible (Old and New Testaments) is the Catholic Bible. Many of the original source documents no longer exist. What else would you regard the Bible? Scholarly Catholic and Protestant translations these days are translated by Catholics, Protestants and Jews.

I don’t know where you got the idea that I follow Baptist teachings. I do not. I am not part of a religion, I am a follower of Christ. At least I strive to be.

FATHER JOE: Christ founded the Church. You have no Church. Then how were you baptized? Sorry, you are farther away from the truth than I had even imagined.
Sandra, on March 18, 2013 at 1:22 am said:

You guys are certainly keeping me busy here with two to answer to. I will take it in order, answering you first, Joe:

I didn’t use the right wording when I said I wasn’t afraid of blaspheming. I’m not, but that’s not because I think I’m so right, but because I am leaning on God’s Word and His Spirit to guide me. You say that you are cautious about criticizing, yet you tell me I’m wrong. Seems the same as you accuse me of.

FATHER JOE: You cannot even get the basic facts right about what Catholics actually believe. Such error is not reflective of any protective influence from the Holy Spirit. Further, given that Catholicism was established and protected by God, castigation of the Catholic-Christian faith and its practices is a form of blasphemy against the Spirit of God. The Church is the Mystical Body of Christ. Your “learning” is presumptuous and not credible. Who are your authorities? Besides the Bible, what books have formed your views about Catholicism? If such criticism bothers you, then remember again that you are a visitor on a Catholic priest’s blog. This is not an open discussion forum. I will always have the last word. Unlike you, I do not make up my religion as I go along, no matter how sincere you might be, but rather trust in the deposit of faith transmitted to the Church from the days of the apostles. It is true that I have no real doubts about the Catholic faith; if that makes me sound snobbish or elitist, then so be it. I am only taking a defensive posture because of the attack mode you have maintained on various points of Catholic faith. I would not presume to go to your blog and try to tear down your religion. I would seek areas of agreement and try to foster mutual respect. But you cannot make any claim to such decency when you come here and declare that Catholicism is the Church of demons or Satan’s work.

My statement is not false. Nowhere in the Bible does it indicate that the apostles were anything other than apostles, but they are acknowledged as such many times, including Peter. e.g. Acts 1:26, Act 2:14,37.

FATHER JOE:

The trouble is that you make many false statements. Indeed, you probably do not even know what an apostle is or the full significance. Could you even coherently distinguish between apostles and disciples? The old Catholic Encyclopedia has this to say:

The Gospels point out how, from the beginning of his ministry, Jesus called to him some Jews, and by a very diligent instruction and formation made them his disciples. After some time, in the Galilean ministry, he selected twelve whom, as Mark (3:14) and Luke (vi, 13) say, “he also named Apostles.” The origin of the Apostolate lies therefore in a special vocation, a formal appointment of the Lord to a determined office, with connected authority and duties. The appointment of the twelve Apostles is given by the three Synoptic Gospels (Mark 3:13-19; Matthew 10:1-4; Luke 6:12-16) nearly in the same words, so that the three narratives are literally dependent. Only on the immediately connected events is there some difference between them.

The authority of the Apostles proceeds from the office imposed upon them by Our Lord and is based on the very explicit sayings of Christ Himself. He will be with them all days to the end of ages (Matthew 28:20), give a sanction to their preaching (Mark 16:16), send them the “promise of the Father”, “virtue from above” (Luke 24:49). The Acts of the Apostles and the Epistles of the New Testament show us the exercise of this authority. The Apostle makes laws (Acts 15:29; 1 Corinthians 7:12 sq.), teaches (Acts 2:37 and following), claims for his teaching that it should be received as the word of God (1 Thessalonians 2:13), punishes (Acts 5:1-11; 1 Corinthians 5:1-5), administers the sacred rites (Acts 6:1 sq.; 16:33; 20:11), provides successors (2 Timothy 1:6; Acts 14:22). In the modern theological terms the Apostle, besides the power of order, has a general power of jurisdiction and magisterium (teaching). The former embraces the power of making laws judging on religious matters, and enforcing obligations by means of suitable penalties. The latter includes the power of setting forth with authority Christ’s doctrine. It is necessary to add here that an Apostle could receive new revealed truths in order to propose them to the Church. This, however, is something wholly personal to the Apostles.

The church ‘fathers’ and the Roman Catholic Church came along after the apostles and later claimed them as Catholic also in order to deceive people into believing the Catholic Church was the forerunner.

FATHER JOE: There was no deception and now you malign the early Church and the martyrs for the faith. Your bigotry would insult the ancient Christian heroes. The early Church fathers and mothers passed on the faith and preserved the Bible, but you don’t care. No, if there is any falsehood or deceit, then it is yours. There is no Christianity without both Christ and the Church. Separation from one alienates you from the other. Of course, you admit to having no genuine organized religion and no Church. You got yourself baptized somehow (maybe) and purloined a bible from some church you would now disown and started your private book religion and/or worship… at least as long as it was not a Catholic book.

What you defend yourself about are not my accusations.

FATHER JOE: Yes, they are. You have offered no other names. If you did I suspect they would be the names of marginalized fundamentalists or of bigoted know-nothings who attacked Catholic immigrants over a century ago. The charges you make are yours and God will hold you accountable.

I am not speaking personally here at all, definitely not assaulting.

FATHER JOE: Don’t make me laugh. If the Catholic Church is Satanic than you would necessarily categorize priests like myself as demonic minions. I would say that is definitely an assault. But your calumny will not stand.

I’m sorry if a priest takes it personally, but that’s not the intent.

FATHER JOE: There is no other way to take such vile and ignorant prejudice. And yet, by calling into question my Christianity and that of the ancient witnesses, you end up invalidating your claims for yourself.

When my beliefs are attacked I defend God, not myself.

FATHER JOE: No, you are defending yourself and you are the one doing the attacking. My remarks here (on my blog) are defensive.

If I’m told I’m ignorant or worse (assuming what you think my ‘ilk’ is isn’t a good thing), then I pray harder for humbleness to keep me from responding in like.

FATHER JOE: What you should be praying for is a deeper appreciation of the truth. It is here where your humility is found wanting. My faith is given to me by Scripture and the teaching Church. Yours is the stuff of private interpretation. And yet, you would impose your personal ideas over the corporate faith of Catholics. More than this, you would condemn Catholicism altogether. Yours is not humility but hubris.

Why do you assume that I would enter blindly into a discussion such as this? I have not studied one-sidedly. In fact, for one reference, I spent quite a few months daily discussing with someone who was trying to convert me to Catholicism. This was cause for much in-depth research from many sources, including Catholic of course but the more I learned, the more I was convicted that Catholicism is not of God.

FATHER JOE: Why would this impress me? Debates among fools would neither enlighten nor properly educate. What are your real sources? What books have you studied? Where did you learn your Latin, Greek and Hebrew? You give no answer because your background is probably lacking and credentials are inflated. God has given you special knowledge and insight— NOT!

Again you’ve assumed I’m too ignorant to be aware of such things as the ecumenical collaboration. Well, I am aware of it, but don’t see what it has to do with this discussion.

FATHER JOE: The fact that you don’t see a connection proves that you do not really know what it is about. You reject ecumenical dialogue and prefer straight apologetics against Catholicism. My verdict against you of ignorance is a charity on my part. If you really knew better, it would be a matter of straight or deliberate deception. You did not come here to politely discuss or to share a common love for Jesus. You came to my blog to debate against and tear down the Catholic faith. You would make converts for your churchless religion of the book. What shocks you is that I am not duped.
Bob, on March 17, 2013 at 9:12 pm said:

I’m having a hard time dropping this discussion and Sandra this is not to degrade you but to solidify my understanding of your spiritual belief.

Baptist’s are the followers of John Smthy(I think) or was it Calvin back in the early 1600s. The King of England wanted a flawless English translation of the Latin bible, so, he commissioned linguists, theologians to develop this bible which the English honored Prince or King, James with this version. Now if we look at the very first bible Moses was commanded by God, written in Hebrew/Aramaic. The Jewish people accepted this writing in the synagogues 300 years before Christ, I looked this portion up. Now this I all ready knew, the New testament was written in Greek. The writings of the Apostles were then collected long after their death. The Catholic Church around the 3rd Century needed a document to follow, Father who was the Pope at that time? Saint Jerome took up the task. Now here is where you Sandra may take this as blasphemous. taking into account the time which events occurred then written and the language translation and Jesus teaching, using parables and I know you take the bible very serious, as we do, This is man’s understanding of Gods word plus the language barriers in which some words have different meanings. Humans wrote this document therefore our understanding may be flawed. Your acceptance of the bible is from Catholic scholars. therefore if you view the Catholic faith and Father Joe as satanic then you are using a satanic document that all of us call the word of God. I also realized that You follow the teachings of the West ??? Baptist Church which every other Baptist Church has shunned, Why? I’m willing to understand your opinion on my post.

FATHER JOE: St. Jerome was the confidential secretary to Pope Damasus.
Bob, on March 17, 2013 at 4:37 pm said:

Sandra I have to reread what Father Joe stated, but this is my spiritual belief. Mankind is sinful by nature therefore as parents we have the responsibility to protect our children spiritually and physically then as they develop in to cognitive adults their free will determines their relationship with God.

Sandra; explain .to me why your cohort or you stated that the Catholic Church is satanic? who ever said that is very misguided. Our secular faiths that believe in the one true God the father, Jesus our redeemer and the power of the holy spirit should be working together to fight the evils of satan on mankind not among our churches and how we worship,. to me, this plays right in to satan’s plan.
Sandra, on March 17, 2013 at 2:29 am said:

Joe, ‘If’ is the key word in your first sentence. I have no fear of blaspheming.

FATHER JOE: That is precisely the problem. It may be that the pharisees had no fear either about it, but they remained convicted. Even as a Catholic, I am cautious about criticizing what might be opportunities for grace in which Protestant brothers and sisters are engaged.

The length of time the Catholic Church has been around doesn’t make it right. Followers of Jesus have been around longer and they also are still here.

FATHER JOE: This statement is false. The apostles were the first bishop-priests of the Catholic faith. While the Eastern churches have issues with the extent of papa authority, along with us, we recognize the apostolic roots to our ministries and sacraments. You and yours would not be around for many many centuries. Catholicism is true Christianity.

I’m tempted to lash back at you for judging my discernment and calling me ignorant, but that would be petty and definitely not loving.

FATHER JOE: I have been patient with allowing you to post comments to my blog. If I were really petty, I would have deleted your remarks outright. I am a Catholic priest and at this blog the teachings of Catholicism and genuine Christianity always get the last word. My religion is not a private invention but the faith of the saints. I have not derided the efficacy of your faith but have only criticized your condemnation of mine. Indeed, you insist that the Church of Christ really belongs to Satan. Sorry, but I stand by what I have said. You are wrong and presumptuous. It will be the Lord and not me who will call you to task for it.

I hope if we’re going to be discussing further that you will refrain from personal digs.

FATHER JOE: Attacking the Church is as personal an attack as any can make against a Catholic priest. You attack my spiritual spouse. You did not come here for a discussion, but for purposes of assault. Again, I would urge you to properly discern the “spirit” which brought you here.

Perhaps some difference in our areas of research and learning might be that you have only Catholic training?

FATHER JOE: As for my religious formation, I was educated by both Catholic and Protestant professors and am well-learned in modern scholarship. The approved Catholic translation of the Bible was prepared by Catholic, Protestant and Jewish authorities. I suspect that your mentors were all of your ilk and relying upon dated and/or prejudicial scholarship. Do you even know what ecumenical collaboration is about? I doubt it.
Sandra, on March 17, 2013 at 2:18 am said:

Bob, I’m not trying to put down anyone’s choice, nor do I want to insult. I’m only saying that until a child is at least ten years old, they don’t (usually) understand enough to be able to make a decision for themselves about accepting Jesus. Since water baptism is a symbol of dying to the old life and beginning new in Jesus, one needs to have that in their heart for it to have meaning.

Yes, Jesus is the same for everyone. Our understanding of Him can be different.

FATHER JOE:

Baptism is a divine mystery or sacrament. The universal catechism states:

[1213] Holy Baptism is the basis of the whole Christian life, the gateway to life in the Spirit (vitae spiritualis ianua), and the door which gives access to the other sacraments. Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church and made sharers in her mission: “Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration through water in the word.”

[1215] This sacrament is also called “the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit,” for it signifies and actually brings about the birth of water and the Spirit without which no one “can enter the kingdom of God.”

[1250] Born with a fallen human nature and tainted by original sin, children also have need of the new birth in Baptism to be freed from the power of darkness and brought into the realm of the freedom of the children of God, to which all men are called. The sheer gratuitousness of the grace of salvation is particularly manifest in infant Baptism. The Church and the parents would deny a child the priceless grace of becoming a child of God were they not to confer Baptism shortly after birth.

[1251] Christian parents will recognize that this practice also accords with their role as nurturers of the life that God has entrusted to them.

[1252] The practice of infant Baptism is an immemorial tradition of the Church. There is explicit testimony to this practice from the second century on, and it is quite possible that, from the beginning of the apostolic preaching, when whole “households” received baptism, infants may also have been baptized.
Sandra, on March 16, 2013 at 4:21 pm said:

Well yes, I guess I do associate anything to do with Catholicism with Satan because that’s who’s influencing it. I prayerfully resist making any personal accusations. It’s out of love that I wish for all to be aware of the Truth.

FATHER JOE:

But if the message and work of the Church is that of God then you commit blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

The scribes who had come from Jerusalem said, “He is possessed by Beelzebul,” and “By the prince of demons he drives out demons.” Summoning them, he began to speak to them in parables, “How can Satan drive out Satan? If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand. And if Satan has risen up against himself and is divided, he cannot stand; that is the end of him. But no one can enter a strong man’s house to plunder his property unless he first ties up the strong man. Then he can plunder his house. Amen, I say to you, all sins and all blasphemies that people utter will be forgiven them. But whoever blasphemes against the holy Spirit will never have forgiveness, but is guilty of an everlasting sin.” (Mark 3:22-29)

The house of God, the Catholic faith has been sustained for 2,000 years. Such is because it is the house that Christ built. Be wary of your recriminations, they may have eternal consequences that you do not intend.

I’ve studied God’s Word for many, many years with an ample supply of resources to help and have done much research. Thankfully God has given me discernment and I can sense when something is not right which has often kept me from going astray. Anything not of God is of the devil.

FATHER JOE: I have had both formal and personal training in the Scriptures and faith. Resources include the teaching Church, the commentary of the saints, and an appreciation of the languages involved and the earliest texts. Your so-called gift of discernment is simply private interpretation and it is narcissistic to pose that against the teachings of the fathers in faith. Ignorance might preserve you from a certain judgment, but prejudice is a form of hatred and such does NOT come from God. Saul thought he was pleasing God even as the Christians were stoned to death. He found out different. I pray you will know enlightenment or at least refrain from condemning others… before it is too late.

.
Bob, on March 16, 2013 at 2:42 pm said:

Sandra: I was six years old and I accepted my baptism using my free will as a son who honored his Mother and Father and I honor them to this day, though they passed in May and September of last year. I can understand your premise that I was forced as a child.. on the contrary that was a proud day for my brother and I, especially my parents. They are the ones that taught me how to behave, how to trust, and how to accept the beliefs of others.. I feel you are trying to find fault with my love of God and Christ. I will not renounce or not back down from defending my Love of the Catholic Church and the teachings. Nor will I find fault with your rebuttals unless you wish to be insulting to me or Father Joe. I request that you join us in an academic discussion to learn from each other. Father Joe is blogging to teach us. I can, like you, accept or reject what he says. I will research his answers for my own education and understanding and he has been very kind to answer any repeats.. Use your free will to accept others and if you follow a person that teaches hate you’re not going to make many friends or converts My Jesus is your Jesus and not My Jesus is better than your Jesus.
Sandra, on March 16, 2013 at 3:13 am said:

Firstly Bob, I asked about the baptism because I wondered if you had done it of your own choice or as a baby. We are commanded to be baptized to declare publicly that we have accepted Jesus as our salvation. A baby does not know anything about that so it doesn’t mean anything. It looks like my last posting was done after yours, so maybe you’ve already read my comments concerning Peter as a rock.

I agree wholeheartedly that Christianity is about following Jesus and that’s all He wants from us.

It’s Satan who brings in the confusion and distracts people from the Truth.

FATHER JOE: You are more polite than Shirley who posted here, but both of you are associating the message and the messengers of Catholicism, like ME, with Satan and hell. It is my prayerful and educated view that you are wrong about Peter the ROCK, wrong about WATER baptism and wrong about ME. The devil has his part to play in this world, but so does bigotry and ignorance. About the latter, the Lord is merciful.
Sandra, on March 15, 2013 at 4:58 pm said:

The water in John 3:5 is signifying purity. Taken on its own, this verse can be misunderstood as far as Salvation goes, but when one reads more of the Bible it will be seen that Salvation is by repentance and acceptance and water baptism is a pronouncement that one is dead to the old life and new in life with Christ.

FATHER JOE: John 3:5 is about more than purity. Indeed, while our sins are forgiven in baptism, your view would imply that we might simply save ourselves through clean living and such is a form of Pelagianism. We cannot save ourselves. Salvation is a gift. All the ancient authorities of the early Church associated the verse with baptism. It was only after the reformation that certain Protestant critics tried to wiggle around it so as to maintain their false interpretations. However, they did not claim it referenced purity. Rather, the “born again” fundamentalists argued that water signified the proclaimed Word of God. Jesus knew full well what he was going to do. He was going to take the ritual by which he started his ministry and retool it as the rite of initiation into the new People of God that he was establishing (see also Romans 6:3–4; Colossians 2:12–13; and Titus 3:5). I dare you to find any ancient Christian authority or Church father who thought that John 3:5 was about anything other than water baptism. I am not denying the possibility of baptism by desire or by blood; but water baptism is more than a sign of accepting Christ, it is the commanded act by which there is spiritual regeneration: we become temples of the Holy Spirit, members of the Church, adopted sons and daughters of the Father, kin to Christ, forgiven of sin (original and personal), given sanctifying and actual graces, and made inheritors of the kingdom of heaven. We die with Christ (symbolically going under the water) so that we might rise (emerge) with him. We are made brand new. Protestants often subscribe to a theory of juridical imputation. Christ stands before you and the Father sees him and gives you his reward. Catholicism rejects this view. Rather, Catholicism teaches REAL regeneration or spiritual rebirth. You go from being a mere creature of God to being a member of God’s household and family. You are changed. You are not what you were before. Made in the image of God, we are now restored to his likeness by Christ. We become something new, a new creation! Christ does not merely stand before us. Rather, he is alive within us!

Yes, there are certainly different opinions out there. Jesus warns us to be discerning; my discernment concerning Matt 16:18, along with many trustworthy Biblical scholars and theologians, is as I stated. By calling Peter a rock, Jesus was alluding to his firmness in professing the Truth.

FATHER JOE: What scholar called the water in John 3:5 “purity”? Sorry, I really doubt that your testimony rests upon many trustworthy exegetes and theologians. As I said, most Protestant biblical authorities now admit that a special authority was given Peter. What they differ about with Catholics is its successive transmission to a particular person. You argued that Jesus was the ROCK and I also stated that he is the FOUNDATION STONE of the Church. However, I also added that the reference targeted Peter personally and his faith profession (which you now add in that the apostle professed the truth). You are willing to accept two of the references but not the third, and yet Simon’s name-change shows that it was essential. Peter and Kephas are the Greek and Hebrew way of saying ROCK. Replace these two names with the word ROCK and it would soon become clear that Jesus was making a powerful point about Peter and his role, a role that would continue for as long as we have the Church, even to the consummation of the world.

Again (referring to the keys), a verse taken on its own does not give the whole story. Jesus said “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven:” One of the times they were given was at Pentecost when Peter announced that the doors of the Kingdom were opened to all people. Disciples are given the keys of the kingdom as empowerment to spread the Word.

FATHER JOE: The keys are given to Peter who is the visible head of the Church. Jesus is the invisible head. There is no contradiction. What Jesus gives to Peter is given to the Church, the Catholic Church. Just as in the days of King David, this new People of God also has a keeper of the keys. Of course, their significance is no longer earthbound but heavenward.

The empowerment is also to announce guilt or innocence (binding and loosing), but only when it has been predetermined in heaven.

FATHER JOE: This is not what the text says. The forgiveness of sins is not simply an affirmation of mercy already given but its immediate distribution through the ministry of the Church.

Yes, Peter would not be worshipped, another indication that he was not a pope.

FATHER JOE: Here is another bigoted slur because Catholics do not worship the Pope. Rather we show him respect as Christ’s chief shepherd on earth. The fact that you get such facts wrong shows that you lack real integrity in the pursuit of truth. You can disagree about Catholicism, but please do not misrepresent or lie about what we believe.
Bob, on March 15, 2013 at 2:17 pm said:

Sandra I’m still a terrible Catholic as far as biblical knowledge, its my belief and the practice of that belief that makes me strong. The Lutheran church uses much of the Roman Catholic traditions of worship during their service, My twin is a pastor of the Lutheran faith.
I didn’t say Jesus lied to Peter, I said would you tell Jesus he lied to Peter? for it was Peters faith that is the rock and the main obstacle between Lutherans and Roman Catholics is consubstantiation and transubstantiation. Lutherans never change the liturgy nor did they change their profession of faith they still say they believe in one baptism and the Holy Roman church. Now please explain why we as humankind can’t follow in the same tradition and the same practices as Jesus did after all its trying to walk in his sandals. 🙂
Bob, on March 15, 2013 at 1:42 pm said:

No Sandra I was baptized as a child, I converted to Catholicism as an adult. I failing to understand your goal in this discussion. Would you please explain what I’m missing here.
Sandra, on March 15, 2013 at 5:37 am said:

Bob, I should have asked before, but by what you say, it looks like you were baptized as an adult. I’m guessing it’s the statement about what it takes to be reborn that you disagree with. Jesus told us that acceptance of Him in the belief of what He did for us is all that’s needed for our Salvation. He commanded though, that we publicly declare our salvation with water baptism.

FATHER JOE: [John 3:3-6] Jesus answered and said to him, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can a person once grown old be born again? Surely he cannot reenter his mother’s womb and be born again, can he?” Jesus answered, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit. What is born of flesh is flesh and what is born of spirit is spirit.”

Christ did not need baptism to declare anything since He’s God. His baptism was to show that He was consecrated to God. All God’s righteous requirements for the Messiah were fully met in Jesus.

FATHER JOE:

Catholicism speaks of three types of baptism which emerge from Scripture:

(1) Baptism of Repentance and Preparation (John the Baptist baptized sinners in the Jordan, also the tradition of Hebrew ceremonial ablutions, etc.)

(2) Revelatory Baptism of Jesus in the Jordan (One of three biblical theophanies where the identity of Christ is made manifest.)

(3) Baptism of Regeneration in the Name of the Trinity (Christian baptism as commanded at the end of the Gospel of Matthew.)

That’s an amazing story about your death, and of course, it impacts me too, but I don’t understand what it has to do with Catholicism. How did God tell you to become Catholic?

What is the lie to Peter you’re talking about?

Again, I guess it’s the usual thing Catholics have been taught about Jesus building His church upon ‘this rock’. They are told that Peter was the rock and therefore the first Pope. In actual fact, it is Jesus who is the rock, the foundation of the church. Jesus does not say ‘thy’ church, but ‘My’ church. He also says “I will build My church,” not Peter or anyone else. Jesus was referring to Himself when he said “this rock”, as many other places in scripture make evident when they speak of Christ as the only Foundation of the church. By referring to Himself, He was acknowledging to Peter, that indeed, what Peter said about Him as being the Son of the Living God, was true. This (Jesus) is the rock.

FATHER JOE: Actually the Protestant view that Jesus was referrng only to himself has been largely retracted by non-Catholic exegetes as untenuable. Most of them today contend that the real charge given Peter was entirely personal and not passed to successors (just the apostolic period). Catholicism would contend that the role of Peter (Matthew 16:18) as corporate shall continue for as long as Christ’s Church exists. (Bishops are viewed as successors of the apostles.) We view this as the promise of Christ. Jesus is indeed the foundation stone of the Church. It is only on this account that he can make Simon into ROCK or PETER or KEPHAS. He gives Peter the keys of the kingdom and the power to bind or loosen over sin. The scene in question references Jesus himself, Peter and Peter’s confession. Peter (the Pope) is a visible sign that Christ will never abandon his Church.

Throughout the Bible there is never an indication that Peter was more than a disciple and he himself knew this. For example, when Cornelius tried to worship him, Peter responded, “Stand up; I myself also am a man.” (Acts 10:26).

FATHER JOE:

The citation from Acts is in regard to idolatry, and Peter uses his authority to condemn it. The Scriptures give a great deal of regard to Peter and his authority. Our Lord extends something of his authority to Peter and the other apostles. Peter is given a special charge, which is renewed and healed after his three-fold denial.

[John 21:15-19] When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Feed my lambs.” He then said to him a second time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Tend my sheep.” He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was distressed that he had said to him a third time, “Do you love me?” and he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” [Jesus] said to him, “Feed my sheep. Amen, amen, I say to you, when you were younger, you used to dress yourself and go where you wanted; but when you grow old, you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go.” He said this signifying by what kind of death he would glorify God. And when he had said this, he said to him, “Follow me.”

I agree that it’s not right to condemn anyone according to the actions of others (children born out of wedlock). Christ would not do that. How can a pope or priest say He is following God and still make his own rules on what is right?
Bob, on March 14, 2013 at 3:49 pm said:

Yes baptism by water in the name of the trinity; Father Son and Holy Spirit. I respectfully disagree, a person can accept Christ as his or her savior, but then why was Christ Baptized by John? As I was taught not only as a Catholic, but as a Lutheran too, water had a great meaning in Jewish tradition and through this practice we cleanse our soul with water in the name of the trinity. I was told to become Catholic, not by man, but by God this request was back in the 70s. in 2003 I was on the cardiac table, obviously having a heart attack and went into full arrest I was gone for 2.5 minutes before they revived me I remember these bright lights and I relate those flashes to the paddles burning the hair off my chest. What I felt was a tranquil peace that is indescribable and I really didn’t want to come back. I also floated above and behind my body and when I was revived I told the staff what they were doing, their jaws dropped, I also heard a hum as two tunnels passed in front of my eyes. one dark and one of light that stopped in front of me. I heard no voices or saw no beings. Now this may not be a great revelation to you but I know what I saw was a portal to Heaven and Hell. As far as the teachings of the Church goes would you tell Jesus he lied to Peter? One policy that I disagree is Priests not being allowed to baptize children born out of wedlock. I hope I’ve answered your questions Sandra?
Sandra, on March 14, 2013 at 3:01 pm said:

I’d like Bob’s answer before replying so that I understand his meaning.
Also, a tech thing – I tick the box for notifying me of follow-up comments via email, but am not getting them..
Sandra, on March 13, 2013 at 10:36 pm said:

Bob, are you referring to water baptism? I’d like to hear what you saw when you died.

A person is never alone, God is always there. All it takes to be reborn is the acceptance of Christ as our Saviour and that can be in any circumstance.

FATHER JOE: The assent to God is indeed important and reflective of God’s gift of faith. However, the regeneration of baptism is a command of Christ from the end of Matthew’s Gospel. Faith and baptism are connected elements.

I can agree with intolerance of Catholic teachings because I don’t believe they are from God, but I don’t agree to intolerance of a person because of their beliefs.

FATHER JOE: Disagreement is one thing, but what is meant by intolerance? We have to live together and practice a certain civility.

Jesus is love and that is how we are to express our faith to each other, and that is how we are commissioned to speak the Truth to everyone.

FATHER JOE: God is indeed love but Jesus cannot be defined in a simplistic way. Jesus is the Son of God, a divine person with both a divine and human nature. Jesus is the Christ and the Messiah. Jesus is the Eucharist. Jesus is the Mystical Body of the Church. Jesus is the eternal Word. The same Jesus who associated with sinners and outcasts, bringing healing, also whipped the money-changers out of the temple. He cursed a fig-tree and it died. Jesus is many things.
Bob, on March 13, 2013 at 2:29 pm said:

Sandra: My rebirth was through baptism and I also died and the things I saw could not have been caused by the lack of oxygen to the brain. this gentleman had his rebirth in an apartment in Iowa while he was alone. I’m not condemning his love of faith and loyalty to God and Christ. I’m critical of his lack of tolerance and understanding for the traditions, teachings and the priesthood of the Catholic church. it does not matter what denomination is out there for human kind to worship, but with authority come great responsibility and every faith group has some bad apples. the church has stood as a pillar to the world and will right itself with the problems it has encountered. As I’ve told father Joe and the readers I am not perfect in thought, word and deed a lot more than I should be, but with the help of the church I will be ready.
Sandra, on March 12, 2013 at 9:17 pm said:

Bob, this is where the ‘born again’ phrase comes from:
John 3:3 – Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Sandra, on February 7, 2013 at 1:59 am said:

SANDRA: Yes, you are right, Bob. I must concede that this Joe’s blog, but I don’t need to succumb to the abuse that he sends my way.

FATHER JOE: There is no abuse, only fraternal correction. The trouble is that you cannot handle the hard truth.

SANDRA: I will converse only with you and not give in to the temptation to debate with him as it is fruitless.

FATHER JOE: Comments here are moderated. There is no dialogue or debate on this blog without my approbation. I suspect the reason why you avoid talking to me is because you have allowed bigotry to stifle real intellectual inquiry.

SANDRA: Just to note – he seems to have deleted (unless I just can’t find it) the part where I said [deleted]. This from a Godly man?

FATHER JOE: Yes, I did delete your moaning about my treatment of you. It was silly and juvenile… so it is gone. This is just to prove a point… as I said, it is my blog. The Catholic faith always gets the last word. Most Catholic bloggers I know would have deleted everything you have written. I gave you certain latitude and you abused it.

SANDRA: Yes, I make a point of reading all around the verses and their references in order to get the best understanding.

FATHER JOE: You could have fooled me.

SANDRA: I have read the entire Bible five times, besides daily excerpts.

FATHER JOE: I have read it too, including the books subtracted from censored Protestant bibles.

SANDRA: Not to boast, but to point out that I do not take things out of context.

FATHER JOE: You are boasting and yes you do.

SANDRA: I reread the chapters you requested me to and, to condense, I understand 12 as telling us that we are all of the same Spirit but each is given his own gifts to be used for the Kingdom.

FATHER JOE: Okay, but I wish you would give the full citation. You must mean 1 Corinthians 12. Notice Bob that she avoids the body analogy for the Church entirely. Anyway, I thought you were done posting comments here?

SANDRA: 13 defines love as God loves, (I pray constantly to love as He loves).

FATHER JOE: Do you know what that means? Our Lord shows us sacrificial love. Read 1 Corinthians 13:1-13 again.

SANDRA: 14 tells us that love is more important than spiritual gifts, as 13 told us, without love there is nothing. 14 speaks of tongues. Do you speak in tongues?

FATHER JOE: Some Catholics have such lesser gifts as tongues. I had friends who did so and I regularly attended a weekly charismatic Mass and prayer meeting at CUA in my formative years.

SANDRA: 15 speaks of Christ’s resurrection. Verse 50 says that “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.”

FATHER JOE: We will put on immortality.

SANDRA: That’s one of the verses that make me think that we are not eating of Jesus’ flesh when we take communion.

FATHER JOE: It says nothing about the sacrament at all. Rather, when our Lord does speak about it he says that his flesh is real food and his blood is real drink.

SANDRA: These are four chapters so there is a lot more to get from them. What are your thoughts?

FATHER JOE: You are asking Bob, so I will leave it to him.
Bob Vert, on February 6, 2013 at 4:09 pm said:

Father: I guess after 20 years in the US Army I find new ways of offence and defensive tactics. I stay in-touch with my buddies on facebook. I must have clicked on the wrong friend. This guy is “a born again Christian” what ever that means. He posted a rather clever picture with the caption “are you sure you confessed all your sins…” I commented that it is a good question and I reflect upon it after confession.

This started a war of words when he and a “Southern Baptist” started mocking the priesthood, the pro-life movement and insinuated what altarboys are used for. I was livid. I did not turn the other cheek and I challenged their lack of knowledge in the Christian faith and our Catholic faith and traditions… plus their lack of tolerance. Am I wrong in pursuing this heated discussion? It is fun.

FATHER JOE: As long as you stay civil it is not wrong; but do not expect much in the way of results. I find that bigots become quickly entrenched. Of course, it really matters that you know your stuff. I advise against such discussions when people are not as well-versed in their faith as they might think. Ecumenical dialogues only really work when the sides share a mutual respect for persons and reason logically and honestly. Bigots throw out slurs and make false statements. They create a pretend or strawman Catholicism which they destroy. They also like to bombard with saturation bombing, hoping to overwhelm with disconnected Scripture proof-texts, sometimes even making them say the opposite of what they do say.